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  #21  
Old 09.02.2015, 11:20
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

I'm sorry to disturb your hatefest with facts:
1. There was never a palestinian state, so Anon's maps are simply wrong.
2. The west bank has population density of 433 person per square km - making it the less densily populated than Switzerland (487) and Israel (691). source

Gaza is more densily populated, but it is ruled by Palesitinian Islamo-fascists and no Jews are allowed to live there. making it yet another badly ruled, racist, failed arab country.
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  #22  
Old 09.02.2015, 11:22
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Here is an article about demolition of Palestinian homes if this helps you: http://rt.com/news/230339-rabbis-dem...stinian-homes/

Since Palestine is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet, any "spare" land is "spare" only because the occupying forces have systematically prevented any building on it.

As you see, the article comes from RT which is, of course, not neutral in all this. RT has also avoided drawing attention the double standards concerning the western treatment of Israel and Russia. But that is for the obvious reason that Israel does not support the sanctions against Russia.
Yes, I have heard of the IDF bulldozing homes, citing security reasons. I believe they also bulldoze homes belonging to suicide bombers, and such. But to Treverus and Wollishoefenr's allegations, are Palestinian homes bullldozed and replaced with Israeli settlements?

I wonder if there is some way for normal Palestinian and Israeli civilians to work together and development land without getting their respective governments (or misGovernments really) involved. There is enough dissent in Israel against the settlements and house demolitions. I wonder if private citizens on both side are able to take the initatitve to do something collaboratively worthwhile for both parties involved. I don't think peace can be achieved through these (mis)governments. But it may be more possible between private citizens.
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  #23  
Old 09.02.2015, 11:43
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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. . .
But I don't believe most Americans would support those actions either, if they were better informed of the realities behind them.
That is the point I tried to make about the failure of the Western media. It is no longer investigative, it is no longer challenging, it is simply a compliant tool of the establishment and its sponsors.
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  #24  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:07
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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that is the point i tried to make about the failure of the western media. It is no longer investigative, it is no longer challenging, it is simply a compliant tool of the establishment and its sponsors.
100%
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  #25  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:14
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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That is the point I tried to make about the failure of the Western media. It is no longer investigative, it is no longer challenging, it is simply a compliant tool of the establishment and its sponsors.
During the fighting last year between Israel and Hamas, alot of Western media showed the schools and hospitals bombed by Israel, so much so that Israelies were complaining loudly about it.

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Israeli ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer slammed CNN for its coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Thursday on OutFront, telling host Erin Burnett the network did a disservice to viewers by not providing facts and context in their reports on the violence there.
http://freebeacon.com/national-secur...-a-disservice/
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  #26  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:25
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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That is the point I tried to make about the failure of the Western media. It is no longer investigative, it is no longer challenging, it is simply a compliant tool of the establishment and its sponsors.
What and who exactly is Western Media?

News outlets tend to behave like mobster's girlfriends. In order to get the story, they need to be allowed to hang around, and so their reporting tends to stay within the range of acceptability to the powers that be and their audience, with enough room for plausible deniability. Otherwise, they get uninvited to the press junkets.

Besides, most of their stories are designed as 2 minute elevator speeches that can be broadcast between two commercial breaks.

I believe you will find tilt in the direction of the power or audience they aim to entertain. Say the wrong thing, and they may not report on that story again.

I was just comparing the difference in coverage between the Guardian and the Telegraph in regards to climate science. I suppose if someone consumes and decide the Guardian is the source of truth, it would make all the others look like biased misreporting. I'm sure you can find an Arab news source that equates the settlements to the Ukraine. But it will not likely resonate the same in JPost.
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  #27  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:44
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Woohoo, another "let's bitch about Israel thread". Why is it we condemn Israel for committing genocide, but don't give two shits when it takes place in Africa? Why is it people get killed in Tibet, Chechnya and Kurdistan but it's never as important as what's going on with bloody Israel? If everyone really cared passionately about occupied people trying to free themselves, then there would be far more column inches given to these conflicts. Why is it in the last year anti Semitic attacks have risen massively across Europe?
Because billions of dollars of aid are not given to China, Russia or the Turks?
Because those genocides are not being carried out in our name?

primarily: Because our media doesn't give a damn about those genocides? I think you'll find all those who condemn Israeli genocide also condemn all the other genocides you mention.

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That is a common and widespread sentiment. But in purely legal terms, there are dissenting views and perspectives on the matter. This wiki page better identifies the issue of whether or not it is truly illegal:
International law and Israeli settlements


Regardless of the technicalities of the laws, I do believe it should be addressed amicably by all parties involved in the interest of peace. Peace and stability should take precedence over legal technicalities. I'm not sure if that is pure sentiment, or there is some legal grounds for it. But it seems like common sense to me.

I wonder if the deed owners of the land were compensated, and/or if Israel has offered or provided any compensation to the Palestinians.
Peace and stability will only ever take precedence when both parties want it to. They don't. Neither party, including the one we sponsor, wants peace.

And no, the deed owners of the land were not compensated. Hence it is called a land grab, and not a government purchase.

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You do realise there were 3 wars in this period of time? And that the consequence of war tends to be redefined borders?
which explains why allied forces are still occupying a quartered and distributed Germany? oh wait...

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I'm sorry to disturb your hatefest with facts:
1. There was never a palestinian state, so Anon's maps are simply wrong.
2. The west bank has population density of 433 person per square km - making it the less densily populated than Switzerland (487) and Israel (691). source

Gaza is more densily populated, but it is ruled by Palesitinian Islamo-fascists and no Jews are allowed to live there. making it yet another badly ruled, racist, failed arab country.
Yeah, the british mandata was just a mandate over an empty patch of land

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Switzerland and Israel are not currently suffering a complete economic embargo, crippling all infrastructure and making even clean water a precious commodity? When the land can support it, that level of population is not automatically a problem, but when only enough food so as to allow the population to survive is allowed in, it becomes a huge problem.


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Yes, I have heard of the IDF bulldozing homes, citing security reasons. I believe they also bulldoze homes belonging to suicide bombers, and such. But to Treverus and Wollishoefenr's allegations, are Palestinian homes bullldozed and replaced with Israeli settlements?

I wonder if there is some way for normal Palestinian and Israeli civilians to work together and development land without getting their respective governments (or misGovernments really) involved. There is enough dissent in Israel against the settlements and house demolitions. I wonder if private citizens on both side are able to take the initatitve to do something collaboratively worthwhile for both parties involved. I don't think peace can be achieved through these (mis)governments. But it may be more possible between private citizens.
Because bulldozing the home of a dead man achieves security...how? By taking away the shelter of his wife and children, and those of 20 other families who happened to live in the wrong place at the wrong time, we achieve peace?

Private citizens on one side are held in much higher esteem than the other side, who's citizens are not even subject to the same legal due process...in such a situation, where one people is constantly told they are better then the other, they begin to believe it and peace is a bridge too far.
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  #28  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:52
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Well, we (and I say this in the sense of an American 'we', being American myself) - have given over $100 billion to Israel.

I'm not sure what kind of aid we've given to the other countries you mentioned, and the US obviously has a long history of hypocrisy in foreign relations (destabilizing countries, deposing and assasinating political foes, supporting puppet dicatorships) - all in the name of 'democracy' while it's hands are in everyone's pockets.

But I don't believe most Americans would support those actions either, if they were better informed of the realities behind them.
Well compared to twenty years ago, they are now better informed thanks to the Internet and the use of new technologies which are slowly changing the tide.

It's encouraging to see that Americans' views on Israel are slowly shifting. The US government attitudes toward Netanyahoo and his ilks have become more negative in recent years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...raels-actions/
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  #29  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:52
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Because billions of dollars of aid are not given to China, Russia or the Turks?
You want to check up on that?

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Because those genocides are not being carried out in our name?
What genocide is being carried out in "our" name?

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which explains why allied forces are still occupying a quartered and distributed Germany? oh wait...
I guess history wasn't your strongest subject.
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  #30  
Old 09.02.2015, 12:57
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Any Ukrainians or Russians reading this thread now know why their casualties (more than 50,000 currently ) are rarely reported - because Israel can't be blamed for it.

Time to close this, yet another, Anti Israeli thread.
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  #31  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:00
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Peace and stability will only ever take precedence when both parties want it to. They don't. Neither party, including the one we sponsor, wants peace.

And no, the deed owners of the land were not compensated. Hence it is called a land grab, and not a government purchase.
Lots of non factual emotive responses on topics like this thread, so I have to ask if you know for a fact there were deeds to the land, and the deed owners were not compensated. Or if it only sounds more dramatic that way to support a sentiment?


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Because bulldozing the home of a dead man achieves security...how? By taking away the shelter of his wife and children, and those of 20 other families who happened to live in the wrong place at the wrong time, we achieve peace?
Again, an emotive response not related to IDF rationale for security buffers. The question was whether Palestinian homes were bulldozed to make room for Israeli settlements. I can't imagine they would build a settlement on what they deemed a security buffer zone.

The point was the settlements are on undeveloped and uninhabitted land. Allegations were made that Palestianian homes were bulldozed to make room for Israeli settlements. Is there any truth to that, or is that another emotive allegation?

I'm not sure why people relate to each other through their governments. I think the key to peace in the area are Palestinians and Israelis creating relationships with each other despite their governments.
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  #32  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:15
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Time to close this, yet another, Anti Israeli thread.
+1. Particularly as in this case the OP has the obvious motive to justify the injustice of the Ukraine invasion by drawing attention to other potential injustices around the world ... Perhaps based on the irrefutable logic that two wrongs would make one right?

Let's not feed the trolls.
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  #33  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:22
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

This isn't about the Palestinians, isn't it ?


It's about Israel, who continues to exist, squeezed between the sea and ist arab neighbours, a Nation who has survived against all logic, built from nothing who has the temerity and audacity to defend itself.
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  #34  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:27
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

I've had a brilliant idea to solve both problems! The Russians could atone for their sins in the Ukraine by establishing a Jewish homeland in Siberia. Then they could invite people from Israel to settle there, thus relieving the population pressure on the occupied territories. There is loads of space in Siberia, but they'd need a capital city too: I'd suggest Birobidzhan.


What do you think? Crazy or brilliant? There's no harm in trying, is there?
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  #35  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:30
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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We've been through this so many times before - Treverus and Wollishofener were never able to provide examples of Palestinian houses demolished to make room for Israeli settlements.
I hope Israel doesn't take over my back garden. Just a lawn there
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  #36  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:32
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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During the fighting last year between Israel and Hamas, alot of Western media showed the schools and hospitals bombed by Israel, so much so that Israelies were complaining loudly about it.



http://freebeacon.com/national-secur...-a-disservice/
The complaints from Israelis, prompted by the CNN coverage of the bombed hospitals and schools, appears from the quoted article, not to be outrage at the bombing of hospitals and schools in itself. Instead, it appears that the complaint was that the coverage lacked balance, because it did not include a possible justification for the destruction of those hospitals and schools.
Well, if CNN did resist that pressure to interfere with its journalism, it deserves some credit for that.
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  #37  
Old 09.02.2015, 13:45
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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I've had a brilliant idea to solve both problems! The Russians could atone for their sins in the Ukraine by establishing a Jewish homeland in Siberia. Then they could invite people from Israel to settle there, thus relieving the population pressure on the occupied territories. There is loads of space in Siberia, but they'd need a capital city too: I'd suggest Birobidzhan.


What do you think? Crazy or brilliant? There's no harm in trying, is there?
This would still be at risk from tunneling surely though ? Those Palestinians are world renowned experts at tunneling their way into Israel. if that meant a bit of a longer tunnel to North East Russia, well it's only going to be a matter of time before it comes up at the next Committee Meeting and before the old Israeli's know it, they'll be interrupted from their new Siberian pastime of heliskiing by the same old scene of their most feared adversaries head popping up out of the snow ready to wage Jihad.

Good idea, though.
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  #38  
Old 09.02.2015, 14:14
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Its all circumstantial. Without Israel, you'd probably still see Hezbollah and the Palestinians going at each other. If Israel were in Tahiti, the Polynesians would probably be attacking them. In the whole scheme of things, we don't actually know if the current circumstance is better or worse than an alternative.

The lesson to be learned is how to get along with each other, regardless of the circumstances. We all have to grow up some time or another, ne?
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  #39  
Old 09.02.2015, 14:44
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Here is an article about demolition of Palestinian homes if this helps you: http://rt.com/news/230339-rabbis-dem...stinian-homes/

Since Palestine is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet, any "spare" land is "spare" only because the occupying forces have systematically prevented any building on it.

As you see, the article comes from RT which is, of course, not neutral in all this. RT has also avoided drawing attention the double standards concerning the western treatment of Israel and Russia. But that is for the obvious reason that Israel does not support the sanctions against Russia.
About "Since Palestine is one of the most densely populated areas..." I took a look with Google Earth and there seems to be a lot of open space?

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During the fighting last year between Israel and Hamas, a lot of Western media showed the schools and hospitals bombed by Israel, so much so that Israelies were complaining loudly about it.
Same deal as Ukraine; if people launch their weapons from residential areas/schools/hospitals then they get hit by return fire.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.02.2015 at 19:34. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #40  
Old 09.02.2015, 15:06
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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About "Since Palestine is one of the most densely populated areas..." I took a look with Google Earth and there seems to be a lot of open space?
Just having open space does not automatically mean it is populated, or even habitable...
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