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  #41  
Old 09.02.2015, 15:06
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Same deal as Ukraine; if people launch their weapons from residential areas/schools/hospitals then they get hit by return fire.
Indeed, human shields is a very old and effective trick...

Plenty of news reports in Gaza are interrupted by outgoing rocket attacks, I'm sure if Irsreal returned fire and blew up a France24 or Al Jazzera news reporter, Hamas would be smiling ear to ear.

http://youtu.be/EaqWqjb4w6s?t=40s

http://youtu.be/FWGIR6s_nDE?t=30s
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  #42  
Old 09.02.2015, 16:33
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Indeed, human shields is a very old and effective trick...

Plenty of news reports in Gaza are interrupted by outgoing rocket attacks, I'm sure if Irsreal returned fire and blew up a France24 or Al Jazzera news reporter, Hamas would be smiling ear to ear.

http://youtu.be/EaqWqjb4w6s?t=40s

http://youtu.be/FWGIR6s_nDE?t=30s
If Youtube says it, it must be true.
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  #43  
Old 09.02.2015, 16:53
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We've been through this so many times before - Treverus and Wollishofener were never able to provide examples of Palestinian houses demolished to make room for Israeli settlements.
http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?id=473422

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I've had a brilliant idea to solve both problems! The Russians could atone for their sins in the Ukraine by establishing a Jewish homeland in Siberia. Then they could invite people from Israel to settle there, thus relieving the population pressure on the occupied territories. There is loads of space in Siberia, but they'd need a capital city too: I'd suggest Birobidzhan.


What do you think? Crazy or brilliant? There's no harm in trying, is there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

And while we're at it, what about Madagascar?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.02.2015 at 19:36. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #44  
Old 09.02.2015, 16:59
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Well compared to twenty years ago, they are now better informed thanks to the Internet and the use of new technologies which are slowly changing the tide....
That would be nice - but I doubt it's true. For a start many people selectively use the internet to bolster their preconceived ideas.

Even if you try to find objective facts it can be difficult. A right-wing Israel supporting website is as full of misinformation as a pro-arab website. It's not likely you're comparing equally well thought-out positions.

I know people who support RT simply because they don't trust the BBC. "The BBC is biased and lying => RT is balanced and truthful".

The internet brings quantity but I doubt there's a big increase in quality.
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  #45  
Old 09.02.2015, 17:01
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Unoccupied, empty Nazi owned hotel appropriated by the Jordanian state and later sold to build apartments which will house Jews and Arabs.

I'm sorry if it makes you sad, but at least we know where your sympathies lie.
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  #46  
Old 09.02.2015, 17:05
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Phos, just one example:
Israel has passed legislation for the displacement of the Beduins in the Negev (google the Prawer Plan or Prawer Begin Plan). Compensation, if at all, is not in the form of land, which obviously destroys beduin culture. The german wiki page says that the new location is by a waste deposit, so close in fact that it negatively impacts beduins health.

Israels settlements on palestinean land have been declared illegal by UN. Your objection is like saying a court ruling is disputed because the accused rejects it, it's nothing more than a strawman argument and frankly, quite stupid.

Another strawman argument is you demanding a link between destructing palestinean homes to make space for settlements: Israel has no legal jurisdiction over the occupied territory because it's not Israels'. Thus all its laws on that matter are void, and any use of force is illegal, the purpose is irrelevant.

There's plenty of information available on Israel apartheid policy. All it takes is a small effort.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/palestine-...t-bank-attacks
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...rning-20080311
http://www.badil.org/en/
https://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...ies/38314.html

Last edited by Urs Max; 09.02.2015 at 17:16. Reason: phrasing
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  #47  
Old 09.02.2015, 17:28
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

And while we're at it, what about Madagascar?
There is Brooklyn, NYC. Or Kyras Joel, which is kind of like a Jerusalem.


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Phos, just one example:
Israel has passed legislation for the displacement of the Beduins in the Negev (google the Prawer Plan or Prawer Begin Plan). Compensation, if at all, is not in the form of land, which obviously destroys beduin culture. The german wiki page says that the new location is by a waste deposit, so close in fact that it negatively impacts beduins health.

The settlements have been declared illegal by UN. Your objection is like saying a court ruling is disputed because the accused rejects it, it's nothing more than a strawman argument and frankly, quite stupid.

Another strawman argument is you demanding a link between destructing palestinean homes to make space for settlements: Israel has no legal jurisdiction over the occupied territory because it's not Israels'. Thus all its laws on that matter are void, and any use of force is illegal, the purpose is irrelevant.

There's plenty of information available on Israel apartheid policy. All it takes is a small effort.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/palestine-...t-bank-attacks
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...rning-20080311
http://www.badil.org/en/
https://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...ies/38314.html
I'm not objecting to anything at all. I just want to distinguish between legality and political sentiment. Of those above, which are of legitimate jurisprudence? Why have these not been taken to a real court?

When did the UN declare settlements illegal? The UN is subject to politization, and loses in legal credibility in the process. As I recall, a UN Security Council resolution on settlements was vetoed by Obama. Therefore, there wasn't one. Unless you are talking about some other UN?

The problem with trying to address this outside the rule of law is that it only encourages vigilantism. In this case, it encourages justifications for terrorism. Whereas the proper way to handle these is through jurisprudence, not hearsays, rumours and innuendos. It should be taken to a binding court, until then, it is prejudice.

Last edited by Phos; 09.02.2015 at 22:09.
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  #48  
Old 09.02.2015, 17:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

International law is a myth - unless you've got political will and the war machine to back it up. The rulings of the UN are frequently political motivated, and routinely ignored by oh so many nations.
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  #49  
Old 09.02.2015, 18:02
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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International law is a myth - unless you've got political will and the war machine to back it up. The rulings of the UN are frequently political motivated, and routinely ignored by oh so many nations.
The fourth Geneva convention is not a myth

And as for UN rulings being politically motivated, back in 1948 there was that little thing called the UN mandate for Palestine. An UN mandate is based on nations following some common law. So when the validity of international law is questioned, since the founding of Israel is based on it, by the logic espoused by some posters on this thread, that would be anti-semitism right?

Methinks those who live in lands mandated by the UN to begin with, should not be so eager to throw stones at the UN.
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  #50  
Old 09.02.2015, 18:28
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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The fourth Geneva convention is not a myth

And as for UN rulings being politically motivated, back in 1948 there was that little thing called the UN mandate for Palestine. An UN mandate is based on nations following some common law. So when the validity of international law is questioned, since the founding of Israel is based on it, by the logic espoused by some posters on this thread, that would be anti-semitism right?

Methinks those who live in lands mandated by the UN to begin with, should not be so eager to throw stones at the UN.

Those UN Mandates may also be viewed as one of the causes of the problems. First it partitions non-continguous lands and calls them territories. With Jerusalem not even addressed. And wordings with enough ambiguity to perpetuate the conflict.

There is a perspective and an interpretation that the West Bank was left open to Arabs, Israelis, Jews, Muslims and Christians alike. The definition of where the West Bank started and ended is also ambiguous. There is also acknowledgement of Israel's need for a security buffer. So with all these, which was suppose to settle issues, is just as much responsible for causing and perpetuating the issues. I'm not sure if Israel feels particular grateful to the UN either.

Without an objective legal reality, everyone just whines and grovel about their own sentiments. It seems to draw out both forms of anti-semitism from the crowd.
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  #51  
Old 09.02.2015, 18:42
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Just having open space does not automatically mean it is populated, or even habitable...
Maybe, could be, might be!
You do not make a convincing case
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  #52  
Old 09.02.2015, 19:29
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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This isn't about the Palestinians, isn't it ?


It's about Israel, who continues to exist, squeezed between the sea and ist arab neighbours, a Nation who has survived against all logic, built from nothing who has the temerity and audacity to defend itself.

Against all logic is right. Built from nothing, not really...(but $100 bilion in US taypayer dollars don't hurt much). And it defends itself very well while staging offensive land-grabs against it's neighbors. How wonderful...
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  #53  
Old 09.02.2015, 20:20
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Land Grab Palestine - OK; Land Grab Serbia - OK; Land Grab Ukraine - not OK;

American aggression on Serbia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq OK; Russian 'agression' on Ukraine not OK.

continue the thread...
OK...
And then with Russia, you have this issue of its huge army and nuclear weapons, and the history of the Cold War and all. They've also been conducting these military maneuvers in the skies with their bombers near allies. A Russian aggression un-answered in the Ukraine can set the precedence for further threats and aggressions. The neighboring countries and allies wanted a united and cohesive response. I don't really know what the US has to do it it per se, but Western Europe would not stand for the Russian aggression. I think sanctions sufficiently drove the point across without increasing military hostilities. It is much wiser than provocative troop movements. So as you can see, it is quite a different animal than Israel.

Now, why the selectivity in the approach of one (Israel) and the other (Russia)? Simple collective self-interest, for one. It should not surprise anybody that nations have self-interests.
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  #54  
Old 09.02.2015, 20:28
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

I don't know why the UN doesn't just cut out all the bollocks and tell Russia it can have its empire back. It's going to to happen anyway, so surely it's better to get it over with quickly?
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  #55  
Old 09.02.2015, 20:38
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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(...)

Gaza is more densily populated, but it is ruled by Palesitinian Islamo-fascists and no Jews are allowed to live there. making it yet another badly ruled, racist, failed arab country.
spit it out....you want so much to say it......"Untermenschen".

a racist country (like the recent scandal of massive sterilization of falashas women without telling them....only because they are black) even when democractic does not look better.
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  #56  
Old 09.02.2015, 21:10
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Stop lying (there was no "mass sterilization").

Gaza is ruled by islamo fascists and is a failed state
Like most Arab countries.
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  #57  
Old 09.02.2015, 21:39
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Land Grab Palestine - OK; Land Grab Serbia - OK; Land Grab Ukraine - not OK;

American aggression on Serbia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq OK; Russian 'agression' on Ukraine not OK.

continue the thread...
About "American aggression on Serbia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq OK; Russian 'agression' on Ukraine not OK. "

Couple of differences;
1. America was open and transparent about their actions in these countries; Russia is still lying about their involvement.
2. Russia made Crimea (and probably soon East Ukraine) a permanent part of Russia, America never colonised these countries and has no plans to make them a permanent part of America.
Do you see the differences?
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  #58  
Old 09.02.2015, 21:43
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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So suppose Russia also should not stand for American aggression?
Russia does when its not in their interest do they? They vote against the US on UN Security Council resolutions often. They form political coalitions against US interests all the time. They thwarted plans for US/UK intervention in Syria by brokering the chemical weapons deal with Assad. Which I am grateful to Putin for. That was before it was so obvious what a quagmire Syria would be.

The UN though, is not really a judiciary body able to exercise impartial rulings on legal issues. Its a giant committee representing national interests.

Were you talking about something different? For example, do you consider the air support to help Kurds and escaping Yazidis a form of US aggression? If so, not sure anyone really cares about that kind of allegation. It was a good thing to do for the reason that even if the US was is the only country willing and able to do something about it. Serbia/Kosovo posed the same moral issue.

Last edited by Phos; 09.02.2015 at 22:07.
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  #59  
Old 09.02.2015, 21:49
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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the US was the only country willing and able to do something about it.
You really do believe all this shit you write, don't you?

The US was not the only country involved in the relief of Sinjar. FFS, Phos, please educate yourself.
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  #60  
Old 09.02.2015, 21:52
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Oh, that's right. The UK did participate that time.
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