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  #61  
Old 09.02.2015, 23:45
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Perhaps you are right. Maybe it is all a one good thing. This is why Russia should now bomb Ukraine to stop their aggression on Donetsk.
The same way Putin bombed Chechnya when the tried to break away from Russia?

PS- Russia is already bombing Ukraine
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  #62  
Old 09.02.2015, 23:51
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Speaking about the Palestinians - did you know that:


there are 1.700 palestinian millionaires living in Gaza ?


that Gaza has 8 universities ?
the beaches of Gaza are one of most famous in the world ?
there are 5 amusement parks in Gaza
a Jabaliya riding Club with 50 horses, privately owned
5 star Hotels, Nightclubs, Shopping mall, Villas etc.


Seems they do manage quite well ....
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  #63  
Old 10.02.2015, 00:02
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Yes, I can see one difference. Russia only supported populations who expressed their free will to pursue it. Unlike the US (unless you claim Afghans, Lybians, Serbs, you name it, wanted US to bomb them).
Really?

Libya
Quote "21 February 2011: Libyan deputy Permanent Representative to the UN Ibrahim Dabbashi called "on the UN to impose a no-fly zone on all Tripoli to cut off all supplies of arms and mercenaries to the regime."

"9 March 2011: The head of the Libyan National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, "pleaded for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties"

" On 12 March, thousands of Libyan women marched in the streets of the rebel-held town of Benghazi, calling for the imposition of a no-fly zone over Libya"

The Kosovo Alabanians requested NATO support in 1994 and again in 1998.
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  #64  
Old 10.02.2015, 00:11
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Speaking about the Palestinians - did you know that:


there are 1.700 palestinian millionaires living in Gaza ?


that Gaza has 8 universities ?
the beaches of Gaza are one of most famous in the world ?
there are 5 amusement parks in Gaza
a Jabaliya riding Club with 50 horses, privately owned
5 star Hotels, Nightclubs, Shopping mall, Villas etc.


Seems they do manage quite well ....
Roger Irrelevant. You know he's completely 'hatstand'
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  #65  
Old 10.02.2015, 00:43
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Speaking about the Palestinians - did you know that:


there are 1.700 palestinian millionaires living in Gaza ?


that Gaza has 8 universities ?
the beaches of Gaza are one of most famous in the world ?
there are 5 amusement parks in Gaza
a Jabaliya riding Club with 50 horses, privately owned
5 star Hotels, Nightclubs, Shopping mall, Villas etc.


Seems they do manage quite well ....
It was PA Mahmoud Abbas who aired that one out. Not bad for a concetration camp, with 40% unemployment.



Western Liberals are soooo stupid.
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  #66  
Old 10.02.2015, 01:31
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Land Grab Palestine - OK; Land Grab Serbia - OK; Land Grab Ukraine - not OK;

American aggression on Serbia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq OK; Russian 'agression' on Ukraine not OK.

continue the thread...

just to put the record straight, the name of the country is LIBYA/LIBYEN etc


and no part of Serbia was grabbed
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  #67  
Old 10.02.2015, 01:38
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Yes, I can see one difference. Russia only supported populations who expressed their free will to pursue it. Unlike the US (unless you claim Afghans, Lybians, Serbs, you name it, wanted US to bomb them).

The inhabitants of LIBYA are LIBYANS
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  #68  
Old 10.02.2015, 02:03
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

Last time I checked with the UN.

NO, Kosovo is NOT part of Serbia


And here


you see the countries who already recognized the Kosovo




And WHO at the UN did you consult ? The UN cannot go ahead in the matter as the USSR, sorry I mean Russia, would place a veto

Last edited by Wollishofener; 10.02.2015 at 02:13.
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  #69  
Old 10.02.2015, 10:29
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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NO, Kosovo is NOT part of Serbia
Not any more.

Therefore it never was?

And before that it was never part of Yugoslavia?

No, no land was ever grabbed. The borders have also been precisely where they are today.

I suppose you also don't believe Florida was grabbed from the Seminoles. The Seminoles have always lived in their present reservations and nowhere else.

I can show you a map of countries recognizing the USA to prove it.
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  #70  
Old 10.02.2015, 10:47
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Not any more.

Therefore it never was?

And before that it was never part of Yugoslavia?

No, no land was ever grabbed. The borders have also been precisely where they are today.

I suppose you also don't believe Florida was grabbed from the Seminoles. The Seminoles have always lived in their present reservations and nowhere else.

I can show you a map of countries recognizing the USA to prove it.
Heh, except that in this case the Albanians were the "Seminoles"...
But of course, Kosovo is a tragic event for both sides.
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  #71  
Old 10.02.2015, 10:50
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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But of course, Kosovo is a tragic event for both sides.

It served its purpose: establishing that the Balkan peninsula is NATO territory.
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  #72  
Old 10.02.2015, 10:53
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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WRONG -- Israel is establishing real estate projects on land which was and is inhabited and used
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So the people living on the land right now getting their homes bulldozed based on "missing building permits" don't count at all?

You still need to prove your accusation that Israel takes private or Palestinian land for its settlements, let alone bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for settlements. That is an accusation that incites hate and violence, which you really ought to answer to.

From what I've read, Israel conducts its affairs according to legal standards. Even the question of settlements have undergone legal review. While not being conducive to calming the Palestinians, and helping with efforts for peace, nevertheless, some courts have found it is not in violation of International Law.

In regards to "stealing" Palestinian land, here is an example of the Israeli Supreme Court evicting Jewish settlers who built housing on private Palestinian land:
Israel's Supreme Court orders nine homes in Jewish settlement razed

They apparently have due process for abjudicating property claims.

@Wolli & Treverus; Are you going to back up your slanderous accusation or rescind it? I think it is wrong for you to do and incites hatred and violence. I can't imagine why you would do that other than by ignorance and/or motivations to hate.
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  #73  
Old 10.02.2015, 11:23
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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You still need to prove your accusation that Israel takes private or Palestinian land for its settlements, let alone bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for settlements. That is an accusation that incites hate and violence, which you really ought to answer to.

From what I've read, Israel conducts its affairs according to legal standards. Even the question of settlements have undergone legal review. While not being conducive to calming the Palestinians, and helping with efforts for peace, nevertheless, some courts have found it is not in violation of International Law.

In regards to "stealing" Palestinian land, here is an example of the Israeli Supreme Court evicting Jewish settlers who built housing on private Palestinian land:
Israel's Supreme Court orders nine homes in Jewish settlement razed

They apparently have due process for abjudicating property claims.

@Wolli & Treverus; Are you going to back up your slanderous accusation or rescind it? I think it is wrong for you to do and incites hatred and violence. I can't imagine why you would do that other than by ignorance and/or motivations to hate.
You are probably the only person on this forum in such blissful ignorance.

http://america.aljazeera.com/article...nfiscates.html

Perhaps you'd like a BBC source?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29008045

I take it these hundreds of rabbi's are also similarly confused and misled?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10031166.html

"It came after Mr Netanyahu announced the destruction of more than 400 Palestinian homes in the Israel-controlled part of the West Bank known as Area C."

But its OK, 9 settler homes were also demolished.

I lol'd a bit at your comment 'That is an accusation that incites hate and violence, which you really ought to answer to'. I don't know if you've been kept abreast of developments of the last 40 years or so, but there is already hate and violence, one cause being actions like land grabs.

Israel conducts its affairs according to its own legal standards, which it is able to change as and when it sees fit, to suit itself. Case in point: demolition of homes. Israel calls it 'deterrence', but the UN, Amnesty international, and the Red Cross call it collective punishment and annexation. But they must be wrong, because an israeli court approved it, right?

Incidentally, Palestinians are not at liberty to use Israeli courts, as Israeli citizens are.

Phos, the only ignorance being displayed is by you.
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  #74  
Old 10.02.2015, 11:31
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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From what I've read, Israel conducts its affairs according to legal standards. Even the question of settlements have undergone legal review. While not being conducive to calming the Palestinians, and helping with efforts for peace, nevertheless, some courts have found it is not in violation of International Law.
Israel conducts its affairs to its internal legal standards, with laws being made up in the Knesset, and military law as well, that are applied to people in areas B and C (look up what Israel means by area B and C) who have no say whatsoever in how these laws are made up or what they contain.

Backing up "Might is Right" with some contrived legalese does not change the underlying principle.

If you are saying that some international courts have found that the settlements do not violate international law, credible sources please.
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  #75  
Old 10.02.2015, 11:58
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Those UN Mandates may also be viewed as one of the causes of the problems. First it partitions non-continguous lands and calls them territories. With Jerusalem not even addressed. And wordings with enough ambiguity to perpetuate the conflict.
[..]
Without an objective legal reality, everyone just whines and grovel about their own sentiments. It seems to draw out both forms of anti-semitism from the crowd.
The UN paper after WW2 was a proposition intended as a base for negotiations. A proposition that disadvantaged the palestinians as it proposed to give the vast majority of frugal land as well as most of the water to Israel (who was the minority population), which led the palestinians to reject it. Israel on the other hand unilaterally accepted it as fact and foundation for future illegal expansions.

How Israel acted is not the UNs fault at all, that objection is just one more strawman. And a big portion of arab hatred is based on that decision, as well as by what was to follow. I don't deny that Israel is under pressure, but it's high time they took their fair share of the blame. It's only natural for any and every person, people, country, to react like the palestinians did and do when you keep being suppresed, deprived of your land, attacked and family members killed.

That doesn't make it good or legal, but understandable, human in its most fundamental sense. Since the jews have a right to a country so do the palestinians.

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I'm not objecting to anything at all. I just want to distinguish between legality and political sentiment. Of those above, which are of legitimate jurisprudence? Why have these not been taken to a real court?

When did the UN declare settlements illegal? [..]

The problem with trying to address this outside the rule of law is that it only encourages vigilantism. In this case, it encourages justifications for terrorism. Whereas the proper way to handle these is through jurisprudence, not hearsays, rumours and innuendos. It should be taken to a binding court, until then, it is prejudice.
Come on Phos, you're too intelligent to not be above that type of objections ("When did UN..."). It's trivial to search for and find that they have been declared illegal by UN Security Council Resolution 446 in 1979, with USA and UK present but abstaining from voting.

There's no clear internationally accepted definition for a state. In the german speaking countries (and in practice internationally as well, it seems) three minimal attributes are required: To be a state there must be a reasonably well defined country (area) with (reasonably well defined) boundaries, a people, and state authority. The latter is doubtful as Israel has veto power on any and all laws for the autonomous regions. Without a state there's no body to call upon international courts, which is why the international acceptance of Palestine by UN is so important.

A country must explicitly subject itself to an international court for the court to have authority. What's more, the accused country must have accepted recognized the plaintiff country, else it can logically say that the plaintiff doesn't exist so there can not be a case. Obviously Israel doesn't and won't accept Palestine when it finally is generally accepted, and thus Israel will ignore any ruling no matter what. Since there's no power able and willing to force them (assuming such would be legal to begin with) that's how it will be.

While I generally agree that the case should be viewed within a legal framework, the situation makes sure that will never happen unless the USA force them to.

Israel keeps dismissing any and all criticism as antisemitic with the intent to pose as victim when in fact they're themselves are the wrongdoers today - g.g. the conflict of last summer, killed 67 Israeli vs. 2101 palestinians, about 3/4 of them civilians. Saudi-Arabia has been and keeps offering peace (presumably that would include most if not all arab countries) including official recognition since at least 2002 (Arab Peace Initiative) but obviously Israel is not interested.

Israel could have peace. Why don't they?
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  #76  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:11
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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If you are saying that some international courts have found that the settlements do not violate international law, credible sources please.
Evidence by the absence of any legal proceeding against Israel for the settlements they've been building for decades. Technically, the West Bank was never internationally recognized as a sovereign state. Because of that, Israel's presence there is technically not a foreign occupation. In fact, the letter of the law leaves the area open for Arabs as well as Jews. This was Reagan's perspective during his time, as well as Jews in Israel.

Now, anyone can look at the suffering of the Palestinians and come to the conclusion it is not fair, and that Israel is oppressing these people they have "invaded". That sounds like a compassionate position, yet it's a politically motivated sentiment, not a legal determination.

But I can already see how some may not understand the difference. So they propagate this narrative of Israel's abuses without really understanding the objective issues around it. But the Jews as well as many other people in the world live by law, not hazy sentiments fueled by misguided innuendos. Laws are objective and can be defined, whereas sentiments are changing opinions. In regards to civilization, its basic foundations are its laws. If anyone wants to effectively challenge the government of Israel, the effective way to challenge it is through its laws, not through threats of violence fueled by rumours, insinuations and inuendos.
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  #77  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:15
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Still no proof that:
1. Palesitnian homes are demolished to make room for Israeli ones, nor of
2 "Genocide"
3. west bank being one of the most densly popolated areas (less dense than Switzerland...).

@Urs: How do you know how many civilians were cilled in Gaza ? Hamas is hiding the figures. compare Hamas/Israel losses to ISIS/US-UK losses and number of civilian deaths.

points 2 & 3 are mutually exclusive, but anything to bash Israel.

As for peace - Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Morroco - the list of Arab countries involved in war, civil war, terrorism is alsomst equal to the list of all arab countries. If the Arabs can't have peace with themselves, how can they have peace with Israel ?
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  #78  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:20
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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There's no clear internationally accepted definition for a state. In the german speaking countries (and in practice internationally as well, it seems) three minimal attributes are required: To be a state there must be a reasonably well defined country (area) with (reasonably well defined) boundaries, a people, and state authority.
Even so, what does and does not get recognised is more a question of expedience. Somaliland for example fulfills the above criteria but is having difficulty getting serious recognition on the international stage because its not really of much use to anyone to recognize it and in the eyes of some it may even be disingenious to do so, as full diplomatic recognition might unleash a domino effect of new states across Africa which would only make geography more complicated without delivering any added value to the West.

So ultimately to be recognized as a state, you must spend enough time golfing and drinking champaigne with the leaders of existing countries and promise to be their ally and let them station troops in your country and mine your minerals and poison their fish and after a probation period of kissing their feet and signing over your firstborn for a generation or so they will let you be a proper country.

This, obviously, Messrs Abbas & Co. fail to understand.
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  #79  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:20
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Evidence by the absence of any legal proceeding against Israel for the settlements they've been building for decades. Technically, the West Bank was never internationally recognized as a sovereign state. Because of that, Israel's presence there is technically not a foreign occupation. In fact, the letter of the law leaves the area open for Arabs as well as Jews. This was Reagan's perspective during his time, as well as Jews in Israel.

Now, anyone can look at the suffering of the Palestinians and come to the conclusion it is not fair, and that Israel is oppressing these people they have "invaded". That sounds like a compassionate position, yet it's a politically motivated sentiment, not a legal determination.

But I can already see how some may not understand the difference. So they propagate this narrative of Israel's abuses without really understanding the objective issues around it. But the Jews as well as many other people in the world live by law, not hazy sentiments fueled by misguided innuendos. Laws are objective and can be defined, whereas sentiments are changing opinions. In regards to civilization, its basic foundations are its laws. If anyone wants to effectively challenge the government of Israel, the effective way to challenge it is through its laws, not through threats of violence fueled by rumours, insinuations and inuendos.
Lots of blah blah and circular logic to cover up your inability to provide a credible source that provides any legality for the settlements on the basis of international law.

The Palestinians live under laws, including military laws, imposed over them by the Jews. When they have no say whatsoever, how exactly do the Palestinians "effectively challenge the government of Israel, the effective way to challenge it is through its laws"?

The laws of Israel regarding settlements have been examined in international courts, and have been found to be violating, atleast, the fourth Geneva convention, among others.
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Old 10.02.2015, 12:25
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Israel could have peace. Why don't they?
How? Western Liberals like to prescribe Israel appease the demands of the radicals that are seeking its annihilation. Look at what happens when you appease tyrants, Merkel and Hollande rushed to Putin to avoid escalation, and he comes out more emboldened and dangerous. Not everyone believes appeasement works at all, in fact, it worsens the problem.

I believe the solution to this is a legal framework that is recognized by both sides. But the problem with the adversaries of Israel today is they don't recognize any such authority. They don't even want to recognized the foundation of today's civilization and moral conduct. In fact, they would rather tear it down and instate one that is to their liking.
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