Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:27
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,400
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,576 Times in 6,201 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
How? Western Liberals like to prescribe Israel appease the demands of the radicals that are seeking its annihilation. Look at what happens when you appease tyrants, Merkel and Hollande rushed to Putin to avoid escalation...
Good save there.

I thought for a second that you were unleashing Godwin.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Geneva area
Posts: 277
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 253 Times in 121 Posts
hairybadger has earned the respect of manyhairybadger has earned the respect of manyhairybadger has earned the respect of many
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Good save there.

I thought for a second that you were unleashing Godwin.

I was considering referring to a Martin Luther King quote regarding legality but up until now was too worried about said unleashing....
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:34
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Lots of blah blah and circular logic to cover up your inability to provide a credible source that provides any legality for the settlements on the basis of international law.
What do you mean? I've already pasted this source, which details the arguments for both the illegality and legality of the settlements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ents#Rejection

As you can see, there are valid arguments for its legality. But if you would rather discount them, well that is an admission of your bias, right?
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:45
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
What do you mean? I've already pasted this source, which details the arguments for both the illegality and legality of the settlements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ents#Rejection

As you can see, there are valid arguments for its legality. But if you would rather discount them, well that is an admission of your bias, right?
You only presented a link to the Israeli viewpoint. That is not a credible source regarding the legality of the settlements.

Please get the difference between a judgment / ruling and a presentation made by a vested party which is engaged in an occupation and wants a ruling in its favor to justify that occupation.

Edit: and do continue reading the same Wiki article you quoted, instead of seizing only upon a paragraph that confirms your bias. The next two immediate paragraphs state that the Israeli point of view is contrary to the Geneva conventions, as stated by the International Court of Justice.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,018
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,743 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Still no proof that:
1. Palesitnian homes are demolished to make room for Israeli ones, nor of
2 "Genocide"
3. west bank being one of the most densly popolated areas (less dense than Switzerland...).

@Urs: How do you know how many civilians were cilled in Gaza ? Hamas is hiding the figures. compare Hamas/Israel losses to ISIS/US-UK losses and number of civilian deaths.

points 2 & 3 are mutually exclusive, but anything to bash Israel.

As for peace - Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Morroco - the list of Arab countries involved in war, civil war, terrorism is alsomst equal to the list of all arab countries. If the Arabs can't have peace with themselves, how can they have peace with Israel ?
The number of victims can easily be googled, I'd consider it an insult to the typical forum users intelligence to link wiki or zeit.de

You guys want proof. Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimra
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/Dimra/

But it gets even worse, the Israeli have commited basically the same atrocities they were the victims of: Slaughter a villages' inhabitants, destroy the buildings, build a settlement on top and change the name. What used to be Deir Yassin is now Giw'at Scha'ul. Uri Davis, human rights activist, says he has proof of at least 44 more comparable cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
http://www.soal.ch/index.php?id=75 (interview in german)
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:54
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 409
Groaned at 164 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 1,291 Times in 702 Posts
Pashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeable
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

@Kosti, Urs & others:
Let's assume that all settlements are gone and Jews are expelled from the west bank.

Why would the west bank fare better than:
1. Gaza (ruled by Islamo fascists)
2. North Sinai (Palestino-Egyptian Islamo fascits aided by Paleistinian Isalmofascists fighting Egyptian military )
3. Syrian held Golan (assorted Islamists fighting Assad)

?

In all there areas Jews were expelled, but are still hellholes ?

@Urs: the discussion of demolished arab buildings refereed to current west bank, not the events of 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 10.02.2015, 12:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,018
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,743 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
@Kosti, Urs & others:
Let's assume that all settlements are gone and Jews are expelled from the west bank.

Why would the west bank fare better than:
[..]
Irrelevant.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 10.02.2015, 13:01
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
@Kosti, Urs & others:
Let's assume that all settlements are gone and Jews are expelled from the west bank.

Why would the west bank fare better than:
1. Gaza (ruled by Islamo fascists)
2. North Sinai (Palestino-Egyptian Islamo fascits aided by Paleistinian Isalmofascists fighting Egyptian military )
3. Syrian held Golan (assorted Islamists fighting Assad)

?

In all there areas Jews were expelled, but are still hellholes ?

@Urs: the discussion of demolished arab buildings refereed to current west bank, not the events of 1948.
If the settlements are gone and the settlers move to legal Israel, I think Israel would fare better, irrespective of what the Palestinians would make of their own destiny.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 10.02.2015, 13:02
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: GL
Posts: 15,355
Groaned at 969 Times in 737 Posts
Thanked 38,509 Times in 12,076 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Irrelevant.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 10.02.2015, 13:07
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
You only presented a link to the Israeli viewpoint. That is not a credible source regarding the legality of the settlements.

Please get the difference between a judgment / ruling and a presentation made by a vested party which is engaged in an occupation and wants a ruling in its favor to justify that occupation.

Edit: and do continue reading the same Wiki article you quoted, instead of seizing only upon a paragraph that confirms your bias. The next two immediate paragraphs state that the Israeli point of view is contrary to the Geneva conventions, as stated by the International Court of Justice.
Eh? Its more credible for a psuedo intellectual sitting somewhere in Europe to pronounce judgement on Israel than a court of law in Israel about Israeli matters? So would you rather hear what Judge Judy might have to say about it?

Courts don't spew out judgement like hot air. They have to provide backing and rationale for it. I believe Israeli courts are valid courts for Israeli issue. But perhaps you take them for a kangaroo court in a banana republic. Jews are novices with Law, are they? Let's just agree the validity of your point is also questionable.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 10.02.2015, 13:26
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,967
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,243 Times in 5,007 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
International law is a myth - unless you've got political will and the war machine to back it up. The rulings of the UN are frequently political motivated, and routinely ignored by oh so many nations.
Quote:
View Post
... So when the validity of international law is questioned, since the founding of Israel is based on it...
The US had the political will and the war machine to back that international law up.

Pointing out that international law has no validity beyond "might is right", is not however anti-semitic. Israel has a right to exist without the mandate of international law. It is true that many states who complain about Israel breaking international law are quite happy to ignore it when it suits their interests - e.g. by calling for the annihilation of the zionist entity.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 10.02.2015, 13:28
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Here's a perspective of how the Israeli settlements are not illegal, given that the West Bank is not a recognized sovereignty. While the settlements the EU have been funding is argued to be illegal, and how the EU is violating the law.


http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/02/09...tlement-legal/

Look, keep your sentiments as you wish. But these are legal perspectives backed by reasoning. That is how arguments are presented in legal processes. It's not simply a matter of a joining a club and beating people over the head with it.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:00
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Eh? Its more credible for a psuedo intellectual sitting somewhere in Europe to pronounce judgement on Israel than a court of law in Israel about Israeli matters? So would you rather hear what Judge Judy might have to say about it?

Courts don't spew out judgement like hot air. They have to provide backing and rationale for it. I believe Israeli courts are valid courts for Israeli issue. But perhaps you take them for a kangaroo court in a banana republic. Jews are novices with Law, are they? Let's just agree the validity of your point is also questionable.
You keep failing to understand that this is not purely an Israeli matter, and not subject to what the Israeli parliament and courts have devised to convince themselves that they are not stealing land by force.

And since you think Judge Judy and the ICJ are equivalent, it demonstrates your capacity for debate. Keep engaging in the pseudo intellectualism of coming to the conclusion of when a system does not tell you what you want to hear, the system is rotten.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:00
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 409
Groaned at 164 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 1,291 Times in 702 Posts
Pashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeable
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Irrelevant.
Quote:
If the settlements are gone and the settlers move to legal Israel, I think Israel would fare better, irrespective of what the Palestinians would make of their own destiny
Did Israel fare better after withdrawing all the Jews from the Gaza strip ? Did the Arabs ?

You are advocating expelling Jews from their homes to the benefit of Fascists.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,018
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,743 Times in 1,935 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Quote:
Israel could have peace.
How? Western Liberals like to prescribe Israel appease the demands of the radicals that are seeking its annihilation. Look at what happens when you appease tyrants, Merkel and Hollande rushed to Putin to avoid escalation, and he comes out more emboldened and dangerous. Not everyone believes appeasement works at all, in fact, it worsens the problem.

I believe the solution to this is a legal framework that is recognized by both sides. But the problem with the adversaries of Israel today is they don't recognize any such authority. They don't even want to recognized the foundation of today's civilization and moral conduct. In fact, they would rather tear it down and instate one that is to their liking.
Hmm, let me think ... perhaps ... by entering negotiations instead of killing others and thereby creating ever more hatred?
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,337
Groaned at 219 Times in 150 Posts
Thanked 3,860 Times in 1,537 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post

You are advocating expelling Jews from their homes to the benefit of Fascists.
Maybe the Jews could go liberate some other Arab countries for their own good as well?
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:34
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
You keep failing to understand that this is not purely an Israeli matter, and not subject to what the Israeli parliament and courts have devised to convince themselves that they are not stealing land by force.

And since you think Judge Judy and the ICJ are equivalent, it demonstrates your capacity for debate. Keep engaging in the pseudo intellectualism of coming to the conclusion of when a system does not tell you what you want to hear, the system is rotten.
What you fail to understand is that this is not merely a personal opinion of mine, but one that is held by a vast contingency that supports Israel's right to exist. It is so formidable and legitimate that it maintains the status quo we have today. But you can pretend its not there, if you'd like. Try to convince others as you wish. Except reality will disagree with you. Until it is addressed accordingly through the same legal processes, or for those who don't understand legal processes, try to force it through violence to their own detriment, it remains. Ever wonder why and how? Because some still believe in upholding civilization.


Quote:
View Post
Hmm, let me think ... perhaps ... by entering negotiations instead of killing others and thereby creating ever more hatred?
Negotiating with tyrants and terrorists is appeasement and counter productive. They are not interested in negotiations. They see negotiations as an opportunity for strategic progress. This needs to be process through civilized discourse in the court of law. If a party is not capable of it, surely they can afford to hire legal teams to represent them. But in the current state of affairs, all the false bravado in the world will not lead to anywhere useful. In matters of existential threats, it would be mindless for Israel not to defend oneself.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:39
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,967
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,243 Times in 5,007 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
... In matters of existential threats, it would be mindless for Israel not to defend oneself.
But if the Jews would stop being so beastly to the poor oppressed Palestinians, surely there wouldn't be any existential threat?
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 10.02.2015, 14:45
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
But if the Jews would stop being so beastly to the poor oppressed Palestinians, surely there wouldn't be any existential threat?
I agree that Likud has been needlessly too aggressive to the detriment of Israel. You can't treat people like that, not incentivizing good will, without receiving blowback. It dissipates whatever good will they could have had, which they badly need. They seem to have gone into a panicked mode that is driven by their own existential fear. They really need to handle this with more grace and finesse. They need to learn how to make more friends and influence people.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 10.02.2015, 15:21
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 409
Groaned at 164 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 1,291 Times in 702 Posts
Pashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeablePashosh is considered knowledgeable
Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Quote:
View Post
Hmm, let me think ... perhaps ... by entering negotiations instead of killing others and thereby creating ever more hatred?
What would be the result of the negotioations in your opinion ? yet another mis-ruled arab state ? Why would you epxect it to be better than Gaza/Algeria/Pakistan (not arab, but near enough) ?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Registering GmBH in Zug but office in Ticino: OK or not OK? PVDM Business & entrepreneur 2 18.06.2012 17:42
2 Gemeinde Tageskarte up for grab landmark77 Items for sale 5 28.05.2012 10:00
Ok for contracts in English? Ok to write-off purchases not in switzerland? xaphod Business & entrepreneur 17 31.07.2011 19:50
Stuff for grab in Lausanne maxje79 Items for sale 0 10.08.2008 15:27
Bunny Grab matthew95 General off-topic 2 09.04.2007 14:40


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0