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  #101  
Old 10.02.2015, 15:38
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Could we all stop and make sure we don't refer to 'jews' when referring to the Israeli government? They are two very different entities, and many (in fact, most, in my experience) Jews do not support the Israeli government or their behavior. You may say there is not a huge difference, but it is an important one.



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How? Western Liberals like to prescribe Israel appease the demands of the radicals that are seeking its annihilation. Look at what happens when you appease tyrants, Merkel and Hollande rushed to Putin to avoid escalation, and he comes out more emboldened and dangerous. Not everyone believes appeasement works at all, in fact, it worsens the problem.

I believe the solution to this is a legal framework that is recognized by both sides. But the problem with the adversaries of Israel today is they don't recognize any such authority. They don't even want to recognized the foundation of today's civilization and moral conduct. In fact, they would rather tear it down and instate one that is to their liking.
I'm sure you do. But until the Israeli government believes the same thing it will not stop killing...which gives credibility to their adversaries. The Israeli government has its own legal framework, that it controls, and it rejects any and all others.

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Eh? Its more credible for a psuedo intellectual sitting somewhere in Europe to pronounce judgement on Israel than a court of law in Israel about Israeli matters? So would you rather hear what Judge Judy might have to say about it?

Courts don't spew out judgement like hot air. They have to provide backing and rationale for it. I believe Israeli courts are valid courts for Israeli issue. But perhaps you take them for a kangaroo court in a banana republic. Jews are novices with Law, are they? Let's just agree the validity of your point is also questionable.
When the court of law in Israel is no more then a kangaroo court, acting at the behest of the knesset, absolutely. How many of the families of the hundreds of kids killed have ever received any sort of legal recourse? Big Fat Zero.

And stop bringing Jews in to this.

Courts do spew judgement like hot air, and they are often backed up with flawed backing and rationale, to support the wishes of those in control of the courts.

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Here's a perspective of how the Israeli settlements are not illegal, given that the West Bank is not a recognized sovereignty. While the settlements the EU have been funding is argued to be illegal, and how the EU is violating the law.


http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/02/09...tlement-legal/

Look, keep your sentiments as you wish. But these are legal perspectives backed by reasoning. That is how arguments are presented in legal processes. It's not simply a matter of a joining a club and beating people over the head with it.
You call that article reasoned? Its justification appears to be that
1. people were not forced into the settlements, and that
2. the settlement was not considered part of Jordan by the powers of the time, when it was taken from Jordan, and therefore its perfectly legal.

Very tenuous reasoning, to support an already tenuous position.

Give it up Phos. The best sources you can come up with are hollow and lack all credibility. You have yet to produce a shred of convincing evidence to support your argument, instead just providing weak source after weak source, using technicalities as evidence, as you desperately try to maintain your position.

The horse is dead, you can drop the whip now.
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  #102  
Old 10.02.2015, 16:08
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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....
Antisemitism is standard in the Muslim world - there are hardly any jews left in Muslim countries, even though they were there before Islam was invented.

As long as this racist hatred enjoys respectability there will be no peace and Muslim countries will stay backward.
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  #103  
Old 10.02.2015, 16:09
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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You call that article reasoned? Its justification appears to be that
1. people were not forced into the settlements, and that
2. the settlement was not considered part of Jordan by the powers of the time, when it was taken from Jordan, and therefore its perfectly legal.

Very tenuous reasoning, to support an already tenuous position.
I think there is a difference between what is morally right (it is morally wrong to drive other people off their land) and what is legally right (legal as defined by a set of imperfect man made laws and legal precedents). Those who beat the drum about international law this and international law that need to understand that their international law is at best a well meant compromise and at worst the victors of past wars writing themselves a blank cheque for the future.

You can condemn wrong actions for the wrong reasons. This doesn't make those actions right but it weakens the case of those condemning them.
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  #104  
Old 10.02.2015, 16:41
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Antisemitism is standard in the Muslim world - there are hardly any jews left in Muslim countries, even though they were there before Islam was invented.

As long as this racist hatred enjoys respectability there will be no peace and Muslim countries will stay backward.
There aren't many Zarathustrians left either.

Does that make modern day Muslims Antizarathustrian?
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  #105  
Old 10.02.2015, 16:50
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Very tenuous reasoning, to support an already tenuous position.

Give it up Phos. The best sources you can come up with are hollow and lack all credibility. You have yet to produce a shred of convincing evidence to support your argument, instead just providing weak source after weak source, using technicalities as evidence, as you desperately try to maintain your position.

The horse is dead, you can drop the whip now.
Ha, the best source 'I come up with' I didn't even come up with, and that is the fact that Israel exists, functions as it should and is prospering quite well. Its called reality. And you propose I give reality up to subscribe to your delusion? Fat chance.

I provided you with the perspective of those who believe the settlements are legal, and you attribute it to me. Duh!

Notice that its existence does not depend on your acquiescence nor mine. Because you are confusing your opinions, sentiments and wishful thinking with factual and objective reality - denial. But reality doesn't work that way. Opinions and delusions might. Try magic tricks?
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  #106  
Old 10.02.2015, 17:02
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Antisemitism is standard in the Muslim world - there are hardly any jews left in Muslim countries, even though they were there before Islam was invented.

As long as this racist hatred enjoys respectability there will be no peace and Muslim countries will stay backward.
And as long as Israel does the same, there will be no peace and Israel will always be threatened.

Swings and roundabouts, my dear.
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  #107  
Old 10.02.2015, 17:06
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Ha, the best source 'I come up with' I didn't even come up with, and that is the fact that Israel exists, functions as it should and is prospering quite well. Its called reality. And you propose I give reality up to subscribe to your delusion? Fat chance.

I provided you with the perspective of those who believe the settlements are legal, and you attribute it to me. Duh!

Notice that its existence does not depend on your acquiescence nor mine. Because you are confusing your opinions, sentiments and wishful thinking with factual and objective reality - denial. But reality doesn't work that way. Opinions and delusions might. Try magic tricks?
so...your defense is 'well, i didn't write it so it must be true'? good lord.

Being lectured about factual reality by someone who was questioning if indeed people were actually living in the homes Israel was bulldozing, and asking for proof that they weren't just building on empty uninhabited land...you don't experience that level of irony often!

You're the gift that keeps on giving, Phos.
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  #108  
Old 10.02.2015, 17:20
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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so...your defense is 'well, i didn't write it so it must be true'? good lord.

Being lectured about factual reality by someone who was questioning if indeed people were actually living in the homes Israel was bulldozing, and asking for proof that they weren't just building on empty uninhabited land...you don't experience that level of irony often!

You're the gift that keeps on giving, Phos.
I provided clear examples of how Israel respects laws and property rights. I also acknowledged the IDF bulldozed homes citing security issues on occasions. But can you provide a source that Israel bulldozes house to make room for settlements? That the land is stolen from Palestinians? I haven't seen you provide one that they don't. Only expressions of irritation that someone somewhere in the world would dare challenge pop-Political sentiments. A lot of people do. Surprise?
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  #109  
Old 10.02.2015, 17:52
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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There aren't many Zarathustrians left either.

Does that make modern day Muslims Antizarathustrian?
Yes. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/14/op...n-zoroastrian/

Yazidis are also linked to Zarathustrians, and are not having much fun under ISIS.
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  #110  
Old 10.02.2015, 18:15
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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I provided clear examples of how Israel respects laws and property rights. I also acknowledged the IDF bulldozed homes citing security issues on occasions. But can you provide a source that Israel bulldozes house to make room for settlements? That the land is stolen from Palestinians? I haven't seen you provide one that they don't. Only expressions of irritation that someone somewhere in the world would dare challenge pop-Political sentiments. A lot of people do. Surprise?
Phos, you're a well read person and I understand that you enjoy your gentle trolling but here you need to try a bit harder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_d...inian_conflict
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  #111  
Old 10.02.2015, 18:29
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Irrelevant.
Oops, I meant irrelephant.

Last edited by Urs Max; 10.02.2015 at 18:43.
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  #112  
Old 10.02.2015, 18:39
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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What would be the result of the negotioations in your opinion ? yet another mis-ruled arab state ? Why would you epxect it to be better than Gaza/Algeria/Pakistan (not arab, but near enough) ?
You left out dozens of states in the same region that function rather well.

A state that keeps being bombed, can't have the laws for itself it want, doesn't know if the forieign aid will actually be passed thru and isn't it's own master because the former occupiers still control what's happening obviously can't not function.

That fact is Israels fault not the palestinians'.
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  #113  
Old 10.02.2015, 18:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Phos, you're a well read person and I understand that you enjoy your gentle trolling but here you need to try a bit harder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_d...inian_conflict
We are aware of those, and that was noted as an IDF response to clear borders and create "the buffer zone" to prevent terrorist attacks. They built walls along the line in most of those cases. I acknowledge the awfulness of that. I'm trying to understand an allegation that I believe is slander.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of is the allegation that Israel routinely bulldozes Palestinian homes to make room for settlements. And that Israel steals the land from the Palestinians. My understanding is that Israel builds on undeveloped and uninhabitted land, and respects private property and land deeds. I'm trying to see if anyone has any real source for their allegation, an opportunity to prove it if it is true, or if we can simply show it up as slander.
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  #114  
Old 10.02.2015, 22:32
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

compare

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Could we all stop and make sure we don't refer to 'jews' when referring to the Israeli government? They are two very different entities
to

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And as long as Israel does the same, there will be no peace and Israel will always be threatened.

So Muslim countries are antisemitic because of Israel ? What's your excuse about Christians, zoroastrians & Yazidis ? will you use this logic when the next Islamist terrorist attack happen - "As long as Muslims behave like that they will threatened" ?

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You left out dozens of states in the same region that function rather well.
Go on them, name these States that function "rather well"

You must have them on file, next to the list of Palestinian homes demolished to make room for settlements in the last decade, Algerian Glaciers & Purple Elephants.
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  #115  
Old 10.02.2015, 22:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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You left out dozens of states in the same region that function rather well.

A state that keeps being bombed, can't have the laws for itself it want, doesn't know if the forieign aid will actually be passed thru and isn't it's own master because the former occupiers still control what's happening obviously can't not function.

That fact is Israels fault not the palestinians'.
About "You left out dozens of states in the same region.." Dozens?

Last time I checked there were only 16 countries in the Middle East (not counting Israel).
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  #116  
Old 11.02.2015, 07:57
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About "You left out dozens of states in the same region.." Dozens?

Last time I checked there were only 16 countries in the Middle East (not counting Israel).

The Arab League, which is in the Region, has 21 full members and one half-member. If you add Israel you have 23 states (= 2 dozens)
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  #117  
Old 11.02.2015, 08:49
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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The Arab League, which is in the Region, has 21 full members and one half-member. If you add Israel you have 23 states (= 2 dozens)
Two dozen = 24.
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  #118  
Old 11.02.2015, 09:29
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Antisemitism is standard in the Muslim world - there are hardly any jews left in Muslim countries, even though they were there before Islam was invented.

As long as this racist hatred enjoys respectability there will be no peace and Muslim countries will stay backward.

There are many Jews in Morocco and some also in Tunisia and Yemen.


Antisemitism is a term invented in Europe when no Arabs were in evidence. Anti-Semites in France are more Logical than you and therefore hates Arabs and Jews. The Haut-Rabbi-de-Paris (already the previous one) realized this and allied with Arabs in France - as did the leaders of the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde in Germany
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  #119  
Old 11.02.2015, 10:01
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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There are many Jews in Morocco and some also in Tunisia and Yemen.


Antisemitism is a term invented in Europe when no Arabs were in evidence. Anti-Semites in France are more Logical than you and therefore hates Arabs and Jews. The Haut-Rabbi-de-Paris (already the previous one) realized this and allied with Arabs in France - as did the leaders of the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde in Germany
Antisemitism means jew hatred . don't play semantics - your lies are bad enough (i.e: Israel demolishes the houses of terrorists and in the process demolishes the houses of 20 innocent families).

There were 265,000 in Morroco in 1948, now there are 2500 and numbers are declining. In Yemen the situation even worse.
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  #120  
Old 11.02.2015, 10:23
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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We are aware of those, and that was noted as an IDF response to clear borders and create "the buffer zone" to prevent terrorist attacks. They built walls along the line in most of those cases. I acknowledge the awfulness of that. I'm trying to understand an allegation that I believe is slander.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of is the allegation that Israel routinely bulldozes Palestinian homes to make room for settlements. And that Israel steals the land from the Palestinians. My understanding is that Israel builds on undeveloped and uninhabitted land, and respects private property and land deeds. I'm trying to see if anyone has any real source for their allegation, an opportunity to prove it if it is true, or if we can simply show it up as slander.

Your purpose appears to be attempt to justify, as somehow legitimate, the theft of Palestinian land and the demolition of Palestinian properties, to make way for Israeli developments, on such spurious grounds as:

(1) No paper land deeds. Why should, or how can a family which has lived for generations on a plot of land, or a family which was forced to flee like the 700,000 in 1948, etc., be expected to have all that paper stuff to prove ownership ?
(2) Security Purposes. It is extremely easy for an occupying power to define arbitrary "security" criteria for the purposes of misappropriating land, and then go on to demolish the buildings, olive groves etc. on that land, or build security structures which deny the landowners access to their land or water sources.
(3) No building permit. It is extremely easy for an occupying power to define arbitrary rules for the issue of building permits, with the express purpose of preserving the land for its own developments.

Since you are so concerned about strict legal criteria, you should be aware that a written falsehood, if it is indeed such, is usually referred to as libel and not slander.

Margaret Thatcher, the iron lady of British politics, in a rare moment of lucidity and rationality, once made the following statement "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging".
For you, you seem to have gone as far as you can, with this discussions here, and the arguments you are presenting are merely drawing attention to the very facts which you would like to see labeled as 'slander'.

If you want to further these points about the legitimacy, or otherwise, of the misappropriation of Palestinian property, I suggest you continue on another website where you will get a more scholarly response, like, for example, that of Norman Finkelstein. He is a Jew and scholar, and, incidentally, not very sympathetic to the Zionist cause. But, be warned that any attempts there to present bogus historical 'fact' or falsified statistics in the support of an argument are unlikely to go unchallenged.
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