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  #161  
Old 12.02.2015, 16:17
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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What on earth are you even talking about in your last sentence?
What's with all the mish-mashing of the posts? No wonder you're confused. I'm not even going to bother to untangle your spaghetti.

Aren't Arabs semites, and so anti-semitism extend to Arabs too?


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No, but most are.

Palestinians are used by Arab & Muslim regimes to whip up existing antisemitic sentiment - Jews have been scapegoats for 2000 years, why stop now ?

Lets be evenhanded. Its not just prejudice towards Jews. It's anybody and everybody they can't control with their religious doctrines.
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  #162  
Old 12.02.2015, 19:27
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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No, but most are.

Palestinians are used by Arab & Muslim regimes to whip up existing antisemitic sentiment - Jews have been scapegoats for 2000 years, why stop now ?
TIL that all Muslims live in Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon
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  #163  
Old 12.02.2015, 23:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Maybe the Jews could go liberate some other Arab countries for their own good as well?
Or maybe they could just go back to the various Arab countries of which they were citizens and from which they were expelled (just on the grounds of being Jewish), and demand their land/factories/houses back, plus damage payments with interest?

Didn't think so.

Are we still arguing about Israel on EF? Jeezzz.
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  #164  
Old 13.02.2015, 00:06
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Or maybe they could just go back to the various Arab countries of which they were citizens and from which they were expelled (just on the grounds of being Jewish), and demand their land/factories/houses back, plus damage payments with interest?

Didn't think so.

Are we still arguing about Israel on EF? Jeezzz.
Good idea
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  #165  
Old 13.02.2015, 00:09
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Good idea
Hand in hand with the Palestinians expelled from Jordan, of course.
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  #166  
Old 13.02.2015, 00:34
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Hand in hand with the Palestinians expelled from Jordan, of course.
Oh you were being sarcastic. Apologies.
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  #167  
Old 13.02.2015, 11:17
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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No, but most are.

Palestinians are used by Arab & Muslim regimes to whip up existing antisemitic sentiment - Jews have been scapegoats for 2000 years, why stop now ?
There you go with your stereotyping again.

Are most Muslims in the world in the middle east? Last time i looked, the middle east had a population of approximately 400,000,000. There are around 1.7 billion ( or, to make it simple for you, 1,700,000,000) Muslims in the world. Thats less then a quarter.

AND, that assumes:
>Every single person in the middle east is a muslim, which they obviously are not, and
>Every single one of those hypothetical muslims is antisemitic. Which is also complete bollocks.

Don't come here with your pseudo-intellectual one-sided claptrap and expect it to fly. Try harder with your stereotyping bullshit.
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  #168  
Old 13.02.2015, 11:28
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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What's with all the mish-mashing of the posts? No wonder you're confused. I'm not even going to bother to untangle your spaghetti.

Aren't Arabs semites, and so anti-semitism extend to Arabs too?


Lets be evenhanded. Its not just prejudice towards Jews. It's anybody and everybody they can't control with their religious doctrines.
Mishmashing? Everyone else seems perfectly capable of following it.

The classic 'i don't have a good response so i'm going to suddenly act like it is beneath me to respond' response. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Semites does refer to anyone from the same region, but the term 'semite' has pretty much been used in such a way that today, it refers to those of jewish ancestry or of the jewish faith. For all intents and purposes, arabs are not considered semites today.
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  #169  
Old 13.02.2015, 12:47
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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There you go with your stereotyping again.

Are most Muslims in the world in the middle east? Last time i looked, the middle east had a population of approximately 400,000,000. There are around 1.7 billion ( or, to make it simple for you, 1,700,000,000) Muslims in the world. Thats less then a quarter.

AND, that assumes:
>Every single person in the middle east is a muslim, which they obviously are not, and
>Every single one of those hypothetical muslims is antisemitic. Which is also complete bollocks.

Don't come here with your pseudo-intellectual one-sided claptrap and expect it to fly. Try harder with your stereotyping bullshit.
straw man argument.

I said clearly: most Muslim are antisemites. I didnt sa< that most muslim live in the Middle east

Facts:
1. Antisemitism is rampant Media in Muslim countries.
2. >90% of jews left muslim countries in the last 70 years. Note: Muslim, not Arab- Most of the jews of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran left.
3. Antisemtism is very common among muslims in the UK
3. Jews suffered persecution in most muslim countries.

The sad fact is: Most muslims are antisemitic.
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  #170  
Old 13.02.2015, 13:32
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

I personally would not say that "most" Muslims are anti-Semitic, but that there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world. I would say that a lot of anti-Semitism still exists in most parts of the world in general.

The obvious situation that fuels anti-Semitism globally is the Israeli/Palestinian one. Israel does seem to be the aggressor in most instances and by allowing land grabs to continue, is not seen to be offering out any olive branches. I am not saying that Hammas and the Palestinian leadership are not also aggravating the situation.

The subject of the original thread in regards to comparisons is pretty ridiculous as the political situations are totally different. No single government in the west condones Israels military actions. America has continuously objected to Israels policy in Gaza and the West Bank, but because of its own policies in defending its own interests it can do no more then voice an objection. In the same way the EU, America and the NATO alliance condones Russias stance on the Ukraine, they can do no more then voice objections, because supplying the Ukraine with military and logistical support would be tantamount to starting a new cold war and Russia with Putin is far more dangerous to global stability then Israel and that regional situation ever could be.



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straw man argument.

I said clearly: most Muslim are antisemites. I didnt sa< that most muslim live in the Middle east

Facts:
1. Antisemitism is rampant Media in Muslim countries.
2. >90% of jews left muslim countries in the last 70 years. Note: Muslim, not Arab- Most of the jews of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran left.
3. Antisemtism is very common among muslims in the UK
3. Jews suffered persecution in most muslim countries.

The sad fact is: Most muslims are antisemitic.
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  #171  
Old 13.02.2015, 13:36
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Nice try darling.


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straw man argument.

I said clearly: most Muslim are antisemites. I didnt sa< that most muslim live in the Middle east

Facts:
1. Antisemitism is rampant Media in Muslim countries.
2. >90% of jews left muslim countries in the last 70 years. Note: Muslim, not Arab- Most of the jews of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran left.
3. Antisemtism is very common among muslims in the UK
3. Jews suffered persecution in most muslim countries.

The sad fact is: Most muslims are antisemitic.
1. Islamophobia is rampant in western countries, especially in the media. Proof? No major news station reported extensively on the execution of three Muslims in the US. That doesn't mean every western country is islamophobic, nor does it mean every single inhabitant of said country iseither. Fail #1.
2. You claim this, but have yet to actually provide any evidence that this was the sole reason, and that other factors played no part. Repeating something again and again might make you feel better but doesn't mean it is fact. Fail #2.
3. That entire article is an opinion piece. Not a single fact, just the writers opinions, and a number of wild assumptions and insinuations but zero evidence. What. So. Ever. Fail #3.
4. (i assume you meant 4, not 3 again) Jews suffered persecution in most countries across the globe, and the greatest persecution was carried out by christian countries. Fail #4.

As for your link, you've basically typed 'antisemitism in the muslim world' and presented the results. I could quite easily type in 'antisemitism in the christian world' and do something similar. I could even direct you to Stormfront, populated exclusively by white Christians. What you have, pashosh, is a list, that you have engineered, and tried to pass off as proof. Like i said before, in a discussion as serious as this one, nonsense like that will not fly. Try harder.

Your virulent anti-muslim racism is beginning to get harder and harder to cover up, pashosh. Why not just remove all doubt and declare your hatred for muslims? It would make this discussion a whole load easier.

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  #172  
Old 13.02.2015, 13:50
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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The obvious situation that fuels anti-Semitism globally is the Israeli/Palestinian one. Israel does seem to be the aggressor in most instances and by allowing land grabs to continue, is not seen to be offering out any olive branches. I am not saying that Hammas and the Palestinian leadership are not also aggravating the situation.
Israel pretty much agreed to everything the Palestinians were after back around 2000 when Bill Clinton brokered a deal. But Yasser Arafat in his utter idiocy rejected it. They could be in a similar situation to that Northern Ireland is in now when Ian Paisley decided finally to negotiate.

They should apply the same logic in Ukraine. Obviously half the country think that they're better off with Russia. Why don't they just let them go?
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  #173  
Old 13.02.2015, 14:12
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Nice try darling.




1. Islamophobia is rampant in western countries, especially in the media. Proof? No major news station reported extensively on the execution of three Muslims in the US. That doesn't mean every western country is islamophobic, nor does it mean every single inhabitant of said country iseither. Fail #1.
Execution ? really ? Until today no one knows why the murderer did it. possibly he hated MUslim, more likely he was an agressive person with a gun a parking dispute. You can be Erdogan about it, but it doesnt prove a racist motive yet. And the murder was covered extensivley by all major media.


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2. You claim this, but have yet to actually provide any evidence that this was the sole reason, and that other factors played no part. Repeating something again and again might make you feel better but doesn't mean it is fact. Fail
There is plenty of evidence of Muslim persecution of Jews. It played a major part of Jewish emigration from Muslim lands.

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3. That entire article is an opinion piece. Not a single fact, just the writers opinions, and a number of wild assumptions and insinuations but zero evidence. What. So. Ever. Fail #3.
Muslims are "over represented" in antisemitic attacks in the UK. well documented.


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4. (i assume you meant 4, not 3 again) Jews suffered persecution in most countries across the globe, and the greatest persecution was carried out by christian countries. Fail #4.

As for your link, you've basically typed 'antisemitism in the muslim world' and presented the results. I could quite easily type in 'antisemitism in the christian world' and do something similar. I could even direct you to Stormfront, populated exclusively by white Christians. What you have, pashosh, is a list, that you have engineered, and tried to pass off as proof. Like i said before, in a discussion as serious as this one, nonsense like that will not fly. Try harder.

Your virulent anti-muslim racism is beginning to get harder and harder to cover up, pashosh. Why not just remove all doubt and declare your hatred for muslims? It would make this discussion a whole load easier.

Whataboutery. I provided links to survey results. Christian antisemitism is driven underground - no western leader would dare to express antisemitic views in public the same way some Muslim leaders do (i.e. Erdogan - Jews know how to kill, Jews are like the nazis...).

I lived with Muslims most of my life in Israel, I went to school with them, served in the Army with them, studied in University with them and learned from Muslim professors, worked alongside muslims. Many of them agree with my opinion in private, but would not dare to criticise their society because they and their family will be hurt.

The Muslim world is in a crisis, using the Jews as scapegoats won't help.
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  #174  
Old 13.02.2015, 14:16
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Israel pretty much agreed to everything the Palestinians were after back around 2000 when Bill Clinton brokered a deal. But Yasser Arafat in his utter idiocy rejected it. They could be in a similar situation to that Northern Ireland is in now when Ian Paisley decided finally to negotiate.

They should apply the same logic in Ukraine. Obviously half the country think that they're better off with Russia. Why don't they just let them go?
Poor Ukraine, so much suffering inthe 20th century and the 21th hasn't started that great either.

I think that, again, large part of the problem is Ukraine's borders - defined by Stalin with no regard to what the people want.

Yet another sad legacy of Imperialism.
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  #175  
Old 13.02.2015, 14:34
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Execution ? really ? Until today no one knows why the murderer did it. possibly he hated MUslim, more likely he was an agressive person with a gun a parking dispute. You can be Erdogan about it, but it doesnt prove a racist motive yet. And the murder was covered extensivley by all major media.

There is plenty of evidence of Muslim persecution of Jews. It played a major part of Jewish emigration from Muslim lands.

Muslims are "over represented" in antisemitic attacks in the UK. well documented.

Whataboutery. I provided links to survey results. Christian antisemitism is driven underground - no western leader would dare to express antisemitic views in public the same way some Muslim leaders do (i.e. Erdogan - Jews know how to kill, Jews are like the nazis...).

I lived with Muslims most of my life in Israel, I went to school with them, served in the Army with them, studied in University with them and learned from Muslim professors, worked alongside muslims. Many of them agree with my opinion in private, but would not dare to criticise their society because they and their family will be hurt.

The Muslim world is in a crisis, using the Jews as scapegoats won't help.
So, you will assume it wasnt related to religion? Tell me, would that be the case if a Muslim had shot dead three jews wearing their traditional dress? We both know you wouldn't. You have pointed out for me the very hypocrisy which undermines your entire position; when Muslims are killed, all other avenues for motive are explored, but when the victims are not Muslim and the murderer is, then religion is the first thing used to claim motive. And, no, apart from websites like Buzzfeed and the Huffington Post, it most certainly was not. CNN, Fox, NBC...none were running primetime stories about this.

I agree, there is plenty of evidence of muslim persecution of Jews. But there is just as much evidence of non-muslim persecution of Jews. This doesn't excuse the Muslim persecution, but it is also hypocritical to focus on on the Muslim persecution, and pretend the rest never happened, despite its gravity being much greater. Its also hypocritical to gloss over when jews and muslims have lived together in relative harmony, such as when christian Spain expelled all jews to the muslim ottoman empire. But hen, that doesnt fit your anti-muslim narrative, so i see why you would ignore that.

I agree, they are over represented, but then, so is the number of Israeli attacks on Palestinians. The number of Muslims suffering attacks in the western world is also under-reported, due to the media we have already discussed. Also well-documented. If Islam has a problem with jews, based on what countries did in the past and are doing today, then it is completely fair to say jews have the same problem with muslims, based on what Israel has done in the past, and is doing today.

Underground semitism is OK, then? The fact that leaders wouldn't express it but it is clearly still virulent is perfectly acceptable? I dont think antisemitism is acceptable, no matter if its superficial or underground.
Erdogan did not say jews were like the nazis either - don't make up lies. He said the behavior of the israeli government with respect to the Palestinians is. I like how you conflate the two only when it suits you.

And that your muslim 'friends' agree with you in private but would not dare speak out? sure.

I have lots of jewish friends who hate israel, and they do speak out, loudly and often. They are then called self hating jews, traitors to their blood, and persecuted by their own demographic. By your logic, Judaism has a problem with judaism, and is also in crisis.
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  #176  
Old 13.02.2015, 14:59
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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So, you will assume it wasnt related to religion? Tell me, would that be the case if a Muslim had shot dead three jews wearing their traditional dress? We both know you wouldn't. You have pointed out for me the very hypocrisy which undermines your entire position; when Muslims are killed, all other avenues for motive are explored, but when the victims are not Muslim and the murderer is, then religion is the first thing used to claim motive. And, no, apart from websites like Buzzfeed and the Huffington Post, it most certainly was not. CNN, Fox, NBC...none were running primetime stories about this.

I agree, there is plenty of evidence of muslim persecution of Jews. But there is just as much evidence of non-muslim persecution of Jews. This doesn't excuse the Muslim persecution, but it is also hypocritical to focus on on the Muslim persecution, and pretend the rest never happened, despite its gravity being much greater. Its also hypocritical to gloss over when jews and muslims have lived together in relative harmony, such as when christian Spain expelled all jews to the muslim ottoman empire. But hen, that doesnt fit your anti-muslim narrative, so i see why you would ignore that.

I agree, they are over represented, but then, so is the number of Israeli attacks on Palestinians. The number of Muslims suffering attacks in the western world is also under-reported, due to the media we have already discussed. Also well-documented. If Islam has a problem with jews, based on what countries did in the past and are doing today, then it is completely fair to say jews have the same problem with muslims, based on what Israel has done in the past, and is doing today.

Underground semitism is OK, then? The fact that leaders wouldn't express it but it is clearly still virulent is perfectly acceptable? I dont think antisemitism is acceptable, no matter if its superficial or underground.
Erdogan did not say jews were like the nazis either - don't make up lies. He said the behavior of the israeli government with respect to the Palestinians is. I like how you conflate the two only when it suits you.

And that your muslim 'friends' agree with you in private but would not dare speak out? sure.

I have lots of jewish friends who hate israel, and they do speak out, loudly and often. They are then called self hating jews, traitors to their blood, and persecuted by their own demographic. By your logic, Judaism has a problem with judaism, and is also in crisis.
Not only you know that Chappel hill murders were anti islamic you also know how people you never met would react to other murders. I don't have your supernatural powers. btw - CNN still has Chappel Hill in the home page.

My Muslim colleagues & friends also have a lot criticism about Israel. much of it justified - yet they are free to express it in Israel. Try criticising the regime in any Muslim dictatorship, see where that will get you.

Judaism and Israel are doing quite well - Israel has good life quality, success economy & and is a democracy. How many Muslim countries can claim the same ? Emigration from Israel is at an all time low, Muslims are desperate to escape their failed countries to the west (inc. Israel).

I can not convince you that the Muslim world a problem with antisemitism - What proof would you need ?
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  #177  
Old 13.02.2015, 15:14
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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I personally would not say that "most" Muslims are anti-Semitic, but that there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world. I would say that a lot of anti-Semitism still exists in most parts of the world in general.
I would even say, there is a lot of tolerance of anti-semitism in the Muslim world. In the West we have pictures of the Holocaust etc appearing with regularity in the media and education and this serves to lessen if not totally negate any remaining anti-Semitic sentiments in most of the population.

The media in many Muslim countries may tend to pull in the other direction (although to be honest this is a speculative assumption as I have no first hand knowledge but am just going by some stuff I watched on Youtube with English subtitles stuck under (for example) a Farsi narration from Iranian TV, and I cannot verify how representative or even correcty translated those samples were)

I have not met many Muslims who were in any way sympathetic to Israel (but strangely one of the notable exceptions was actually a Pakistani newspaper journalist - so be careful casting all Pakistanis into one basket here).

But having said this, and despite all the grandstanding, I see plenty of evidence of Jews and Muslims actually getting on fine on a daily basis.

So the world isn't black and white but very multi-faceted.
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  #178  
Old 13.02.2015, 15:31
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Not only you know that Chappel hill murders were anti islamic you also know how people you never met would react to other murders. I don't have your supernatural powers. btw - CNN still has Chappel Hill in the home page.

My Muslim colleagues & friends also have a lot criticism about Israel. much of it justified - yet they are free to express it in Israel. Try criticising the regime in any Muslim dictatorship, see where that will get you.

Judaism and Israel are doing quite well - Israel has good life quality, success economy & and is a democracy. How many Muslim countries can claim the same ? Emigration from Israel is at an all time low, Muslims are desperate to escape their failed countries to the west (inc. Israel).

I can not convince you that the Muslim world a problem with antisemitism - What proof would you need ?
Its not supernatural, just an appreciation for reality. It is a skill that can be developed, so there is hope yet for you, Pashosh.

Your argument is that 'well, Israel lets people criticism it officially so its OK'? I expected better from you. What an anticlimax. small, low level criticism is tolerated true. But what about the BDS movement? Why is that not tolerated? why is AIPAC, today, trying to push through laws which would make it illegal for the US to trade with anyone who even tolerates BDS? That is not freedom, that is coercion and underhanded blackmail.

So Israel should only be compared to muslim states? the 'well, we're not as bad as they are' argument? Thats what you have? Poor.

Israel is, as far as i am concerned, held to the same benchmark as every other nation is. I do not compare it to nations worse then it, in a ridiculous effort to make it seem like a mythical oasis in the desert. Hasbara might teach you this method is suitable, but it sure as hell wont fly here sunshine.

What proof would i need? I would need to see the Muslims i know be antisemitic. And since they aren't, your insinuations about 1.7 billion people just seem stereotypical, racist, and fantastical.
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  #179  
Old 13.02.2015, 16:00
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Its not supernatural, just an appreciation for reality. It is a skill that can be developed, so there is hope yet for you, Pashosh.

Your argument is that 'well, Israel lets people criticism it officially so its OK'? I expected better from you. What an anticlimax. small, low level criticism is tolerated true. But what about the BDS movement? Why is that not tolerated? why is AIPAC, today, trying to push through laws which would make it illegal for the US to trade with anyone who even tolerates BDS? That is not freedom, that is coercion and underhanded blackmail.

So Israel should only be compared to muslim states? the 'well, we're not as bad as they are' argument? Thats what you have? Poor.

Israel is, as far as i am concerned, held to the same benchmark as every other nation is. I do not compare it to nations worse then it, in a ridiculous effort to make it seem like a mythical oasis in the desert. Hasbara might teach you this method is suitable, but it sure as hell wont fly here sunshine.

What proof would i need? I would need to see the Muslims i know be antisemitic. And since they aren't, your insinuations about 1.7 billion people just seem stereotypical, racist, and fantastical.
BDS conducts an economic/cultural fight against Israel, holding it to very different benchmarks to every other nation - According to your definition above: This is antisemitic.

" I do not compare it to nations worse then it" - Arab countries are worse places than Israel. Who said you were not open to persuasion. We'll have you dancing in the Jersualem pride parade in no time.

"The Muslims I know are not antisemitic, hence most of 1.7 billion muslims are not antisemitic and anyone who claims they are is a racist". Dubious, personal, extrapolated knowledge as proof. logical.

Last edited by Pashosh; 13.02.2015 at 16:21. Reason: removed a comma
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  #180  
Old 13.02.2015, 16:10
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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The classic 'i don't have a good response so i'm going to suddenly act like it is beneath me to respond' response. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Response to what again? Marton was talking about how Jews in other places (NYC) don't have hostile neighbors, or something like that.

The point I was making is that Israel abides by laws. The problem with what is referred to as Palestine is that it was not a nation with its own sovereignty. A lot of people rushed into that area in response to the Balfour declaration. They had an opportunity to become a nation, but turned it down. Even Yasser Arafat isn't Palestinian in a national sense, he's Egyptian. So there was no international relationship between Israel and Palestine. The laws set up for international relationships don't apply. Those notions of Israel illegalities are based on an non-existent international relationship. So in that perspective, Israel has not behaved illegally.

As for the state of Israeli, before its founding, most of that area was either arid dry land, or swamp land. They've managed to cultivate it and make it flourish. They've done exceeding well. Nearly miraculous, really. It does what a country should be doing, primarily protecting its people.

Look, these are facts. These aren't my inventions. But, go ahead, talk about how Israel doesn't meet meet your expectations.
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