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Old 07.02.2015, 17:16
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Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

How can it be that these two cases are viewed so completely differently by us ?
One we condemn vigourously, punishing with swingeing economic sanctions and strong words.
The other we reward with c. $4 Billion per year, accompanied by a few pathetic bleats like "actions not conducive to peace etc."

The obvious answer lies in our shameless hypocrisy and double standards where we, and our mainstream media, willingly approve the transgressions of our allies and are quick to condemn the same behaviour in others.

But, could there also be valid reasons why these two cases should be viewed differently ?

Is it that criticising the actions Israel is likely to arouse a cry of antisemitism where as the cry of "Russophobia" does not have the same emotive and inhibiting effect ?
Or maybe that we regard Israel's security interests as somehow legitimate in a way that we do not accept Russia's security interests to be legitimate.
Or maybe that we regard Israel's historical claim to be more valid that Russia's
Or maybe that Israel treats the the Palestinians in a more humane way than the Russian's treat the residents of Crimea ?
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Old 07.02.2015, 18:09
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Who is we? The US?

I certainly don't condone the actions of Israel.
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Old 07.02.2015, 18:34
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Who is we? . . .
"we" in this context is a generalisation for "the West".
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Old 07.02.2015, 18:43
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

It's hard to draw parallels with every war/conflict in history. As an example, why is Putin currently encouraging Donetsk to break away from Ukraine, when Putin himself fought long wars to keep Chechnya from breaking away from Russia? Is that not hypocrisy as well?
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Old 07.02.2015, 19:28
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Are you really trying to apply fairness to politics? Israel is our key military ally in the Middle East, that's why it can basically do what it wants. In comparison, the Ukraine is nothing more than a political football being kicked between two premiership teams. No-one really cares about the Ukraine or would otherwise waste any resources on it, it's simply being used to sharpen nails and bare some teeth on the world stage.

The only right and wrong in these situations is what suits our political agenda and national security at the time.
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Old 08.02.2015, 23:57
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

In scope and intent; Russia wrestled control over Crimea and other parts of Ukraine. What is referred to as Israel Land Grabs seem to describe developing housing projects on uninhabitted and undeveloped land. Some thing like on the scale of 1000 acres at time.

Housing and development is good in itself, no? I've always mused that if all the military spending were spent on providing every Palestinian family a single family suburban home with a 2 car garage and swimming pool, we would have a great booming vacation destination instead of all the killings.
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Old 09.02.2015, 06:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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In scope and intent; Russia wrestled control over Crimea and other parts of Ukraine. What is referred to as Israel Land Grabs seem to describe developing housing projects on uninhabitted and undeveloped land. Some thing like on the scale of 1000 acres at time.

Housing and development is good in itself, no? I've always mused that if all the military spending were spent on providing every Palestinian family a single family suburban home with a 2 car garage and swimming pool, we would have a great booming vacation destination instead of all the killings.

WRONG -- Israel is establishing real estate projects on land which was and is inhabited and used
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Old 09.02.2015, 07:44
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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In scope and intent; Russia wrestled control over Crimea and other parts of Ukraine. What is referred to as Israel Land Grabs seem to describe developing housing projects on uninhabitted and undeveloped land. Some thing like on the scale of 1000 acres at time.

Housing and development is good in itself, no? I've always mused that if all the military spending were spent on providing every Palestinian family a single family suburban home with a 2 car garage and swimming pool, we would have a great booming vacation destination instead of all the killings.
So the people living on the land right now getting their homes bulldozed based on "missing building permits" don't count at all?
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Old 09.02.2015, 08:07
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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So the people living on the land right now getting their homes bulldozed based on "missing building permits" don't count at all?

NO they do NOT count. And if the embittered sons blow themselves up, the Israelis will go round and blow up the houses where their families lived --- and do not care about the 20 other families
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Old 09.02.2015, 08:41
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

We've been through this so many times before - Treverus and Wollishofener were never able to provide examples of Palestinian houses demolished to make room for Israeli settlements.
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Old 09.02.2015, 08:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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NO they do NOT count. And if the embittered sons blow themselves up, the Israelis will go round and blow up the houses where their families lived --- and do not care about the 20 other families
Special and expeditive treatment reserved for palestinians. Those who kill arabs don't see their houses blown-up....like those who burned alive Mohamed AbuKhteir.
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Old 09.02.2015, 09:24
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

Woohoo, another "let's bitch about Israel thread". Why is it we condemn Israel for committing genocide, but don't give two shits when it takes place in Africa? Why is it people get killed in Tibet, Chechnya and Kurdistan but it's never as important as what's going on with bloody Israel? If everyone really cared passionately about occupied people trying to free themselves, then there would be far more column inches given to these conflicts. Why is it in the last year anti Semitic attacks have risen massively across Europe?

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Old 09.02.2015, 09:41
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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WRONG -- Israel is establishing real estate projects on land which was and is inhabited and used
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So the people living on the land right now getting their homes bulldozed based on "missing building permits" don't count at all?
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We've been through this so many times before - Treverus and Wollishofener were never able to provide examples of Palestinian houses demolished to make room for Israeli settlements.
To Pashosh's point, can you back that allegation up? Where and when has that happened? The housing projects I've read about were on undeveloped and uninhabitted land.
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Old 09.02.2015, 09:49
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Woohoo, another "let's bitch about Israel thread". Why is it we condemn Israel for committing genocide, but don't give two shits when it takes place in Africa? Why is it people get killed in Tibet, Chechnya and Kurdistan but it's never as important as what's going on with bloody Israel? If people really cared passionately about occupied people trying to free themselves, then there would be far more column inches given to these conflicts. Why is it in the last year anti Semitic attacks have risen massively across Europe?
Well, we (and I say this in the sense of an American 'we', being American myself) - have given over $100 billion to Israel.

I'm not sure what kind of aid we've given to the other countries you mentioned, and the US obviously has a long history of hypocrisy in foreign relations (destabilizing countries, deposing and assasinating political foes, supporting puppet dicatorships) - all in the name of 'democracy' while it's hands are in everyone's pockets.

But I don't believe most Americans would support those actions either, if they were better informed of the realities behind them.
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Old 09.02.2015, 09:56
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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Woohoo, another "let's bitch about Israel thread". Why is it we condemn Israel for committing genocide, but don't give two shits when it takes place in Africa? Why is it people get killed in Tibet, Chechnya and Kurdistan but it's never as important as what's going on with bloody Israel? If people really cared passionately about occupied people trying to free themselves, then there would be far more column inches given to these conflicts. Why is it in the last year anti Semitic attacks have risen massively across Europe?
Because of our collective world guilt over the holocaust.

And yet, the Yazidis are being massacred in Iraq and we don't see any waves of allied troops coming to the rescue.

I guess some genocides are less genocidal than others.
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Old 09.02.2015, 10:15
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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But I don't believe most Americans would support those actions either, if they were better informed of the realities behind them.
Depends on the background you are looking at it from. The color grayis dark in front of a white background, yet light in front of a black background.

In the context of all the instability in the region, Israel's expropriation of the 1,000 acres near Etzion was largely criticized, even in the US. It is what has driven the latest wedge between Obama's White House and Netanyahu. Those two are going at each other pretty hard.

But in the scope of all things, all governments invoke a form of imminent domain to use unused land for development. Its nowhere near the scope of annexing Ukraine. Its just a very emotive topic, and subject to over-inflating.

Surely, that land had some form of deed, and should be recompensated to its rightful owner. I think Israel should involve the Palestinians in these real estate development projects. They really should accomplish these through incentivization rather than through imminent domain kinds of actions.
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Old 09.02.2015, 10:29
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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In scope and intent; Russia wrestled control over Crimea and other parts of Ukraine. What is referred to as Israel Land Grabs seem to describe developing housing projects on uninhabitted and undeveloped land. Some thing like on the scale of 1000 acres at time.

Housing and development is good in itself, no? I've always mused that if all the military spending were spent on providing every Palestinian family a single family suburban home with a 2 car garage and swimming pool, we would have a great booming vacation destination instead of all the killings.

The whole issue is about Western hypocrisy and compliant mainstream media which has abandoned any pretense at questioning policy or uncovering uncomfortable facts. The importance here lies in the fact that it risks a war in Europe.
The western treatment of Israel is a perfect example of this hypocrisy, and will always be quoted. It has ardent and articulate defenders, but that is no reason not to use it to illustrate this point.
However, since it's value as an example here, is somewhat diminished by the suggestion that it concerns only 1000 acres of land, or that stealing land for the purpose of repopulating with its own people is somehow noble, I just want to deal quickly with that. The map below (of which there are many similar) would give the impression that it concerns much more than 1000 acres of land, and the re-population is contrary to international law.
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Old 09.02.2015, 10:45
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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The map below (of which there are many similar) would give the impression that it concerns much more than 1000 acres of land, and the re-population is contrary to international law.
That is a common and widespread sentiment. But in purely legal terms, there are dissenting views and perspectives on the matter. This wiki page better identifies the issue of whether or not it is truly illegal:
International law and Israeli settlements

Regardless of the technicalities of the laws, I do believe it should be addressed amicably by all parties involved in the interest of peace. Peace and stability should take precedence over legal technicalities. I'm not sure if that is pure sentiment, or there is some legal grounds for it. But it seems like common sense to me.

I wonder if the deed owners of the land were compensated, and/or if Israel has offered or provided any compensation to the Palestinians.
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Old 09.02.2015, 10:52
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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However, since it's value as an example here, is somewhat diminished by the suggestion that it concerns only 1000 acres of land, or that stealing land for the purpose of repopulating with its own people is somehow noble, I just want to deal quickly with that. The map below (of which there are many similar) would give the impression that it concerns much more than 1000 acres of land, and the re-population is contrary to international law.
You do realise there were 3 wars in this period of time? And that the consequence of war tends to be redefined borders?
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Old 09.02.2015, 11:07
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Re: Land Grab Palestine - OK ; Land Grab Ukraine - Not OK ;

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To Pashosh's point, can you back that allegation up? Where and when has that happened? The housing projects I've read about were on undeveloped and uninhabitted land.
Here is an article about demolition of Palestinian homes if this helps you: http://rt.com/news/230339-rabbis-dem...stinian-homes/

Since Palestine is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet, any "spare" land is "spare" only because the occupying forces have systematically prevented any building on it.

As you see, the article comes from RT which is, of course, not neutral in all this. RT has also avoided drawing attention the double standards concerning the western treatment of Israel and Russia. But that is for the obvious reason that Israel does not support the sanctions against Russia.
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