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Old 11.02.2015, 10:18
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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I don't think we owe IS(IS) any element of doubt. They obviously killed her and then tried to make propaganda out of it by suggesting the US killed her (With high altitude precision bombing?) So where is the body? ISIS are very happy to show us headless soldiers and western reporters, but not a dead girl.
Again, in no way will I ever be an apologist for IS and their brutal actions -- but an intelligent, rational reading of this particular situation can not conclude without evidence that IS "obviously killed" Ms Mueller. Nothing is obvious here. We don't know the contents of IS's private communication to the Mueller family. I suspect it may contain proof of Kayla's death, such as photographs of her body, since the US State Department confirmed her death after reviewing the communication received by the Muellers.

Also, IS hasn't suggested that "the US killed her". They claimed that Kayla Mueller was killed by a Jordanian air strike.

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I don't want to imagine what they have done to her so frankly, if the Jordanian bombing killed her, I can only see it as a relieve.
Ms Mueller wrote a letter to her family late last year in which she stated "Please know that I am ... completely unharmed + healthy (put on weight in fact); I have been treated w/ the utmost respect + kindness". This was corroborated by former fellow hostages who were released by IS.

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Evidence was provided to her family and Washington to prove she is dead. No indication was given as to what the evidence is.
Exactly -- there is no evidence that she was killed by IS, nor by an air strike. We (the public) just don't know. We may well have strong suspicions, but it would be wrong to jump to conclusions.
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Old 11.02.2015, 10:54
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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Again, in no way will I ever be an apologist for IS and their brutal actions -- but an intelligent, rational reading of this particular situation can not conclude without evidence that IS "obviously killed" Ms Mueller. Nothing is obvious here. We don't know the contents of IS's private communication to the Mueller family. I suspect it may contain proof of Kayla's death, such as photographs of her body, since the US State Department confirmed her death after reviewing the communication received by the Muellers.

Also, IS hasn't suggested that "the US killed her". They claimed that Kayla Mueller was killed by a Jordanian air strike.


Ms Mueller wrote a letter to her family late last year in which she stated "Please know that I am ... completely unharmed + healthy (put on weight in fact); I have been treated w/ the utmost respect + kindness". This was corroborated by former fellow hostages who were released by IS.


Exactly -- there is no evidence that she was killed by IS, nor by an air strike. We (the public) just don't know. We may well have strong suspicions, but it would be wrong to jump to conclusions.
I sincerely hope she didn't suffer the faith of thousands of women who are suffering in the hands of these barbarians. I can only wonder why they didn't touch her IF the didn't.
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Old 11.02.2015, 11:10
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

I think it's wonderful that people still believe terrorist groups are too honorable to kill a woman. I guess chivalry isn't dead yet.

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Old 11.02.2015, 11:15
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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.... Clearly with ISIS's record, and the mentality of the average religious zealot, woman-hating foot soldier, such a thing is perfectly possible.
Especially a citizen of the Great Satan and probably a Christian to boot.
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Old 11.02.2015, 11:30
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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I sincerely hope she didn't suffer the faith of thousands of women who are suffering in the hands of these barbarians. I can only wonder why they didn't touch her IF the didn't.
I don't want anybody to think i am defending or condoning the actions of ISIS, it's toally barbaric, but then reading the report of torture by the CIA doesn't make for easy bed time reading either.....
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Old 11.02.2015, 11:37
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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I don't want anybody to think i am defending or condoning the actions of ISIS, it's toally barbaric, but then reading the report of torture by the CIA doesn't make for easy bed time reading either.....
Torture when used wrongly is a horrible thing, but what the CIA etc do still pales into comparison to what ISIS do and cannot sensibly be directly compared in scale and ultimately in terms of lives taken.
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Old 11.02.2015, 11:40
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

If I was held captive by IS and was given the options of:

1) Being brutally killed (ie: beheading, burned to death, etc.) with the video released on Fox News for the world to see

or

2) Being killed quickly and without warning by an air-strike that killed my captors as well.

I'd pick the second choice without a doubt.
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Old 11.02.2015, 12:03
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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If I was held captive by IS and was given the options of:

1) Being brutally killed (ie: beheading, burned to death, etc.) with the video released on Fox News for the world to see

or

2) Being killed quickly and without warning by an air-strike that killed my captors as well.

I'd pick the second choice without a doubt.
Do you think that ISIS have a suggestion box at their holding facilities?

"Thank you for taking the time to consider your forthcoming execution. We value your feedback. As we endeavor to shock the world with every murder we perpetrate, we are looking for sick minds and sadistic methods to glorify your end in a gruesome manner. Winning entries may be given a 10 minute stay of execution, or bonus YouTube video credit."
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  #29  
Old 11.02.2015, 12:14
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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Torture when used wrongly is a horrible thing, but what the CIA etc do still pales into comparison to what ISIS do and cannot sensibly be directly compared in scale and ultimately in terms of lives taken.
They are both equally wrong and brutal.

Burning somebody is effectively an escalation of the brutality.

Torturing somebody as the CIA have done or beheading.....i'll go for beheading i think,

Hanging, electric chair, firing squad, beheading, it's all pretty similar in brutality stakes. But tortue, never ending, continual and always far longer lasting than a quick death
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Old 11.02.2015, 21:12
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

I am not sure which is the worst terror organisation ISIS or CNN
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Old 11.02.2015, 21:44
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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Torture when used wrongly is a horrible thing, but what the CIA etc do still pales into comparison to what ISIS do and cannot sensibly be directly compared in scale and ultimately in terms of lives taken.
Genuine question - When is torture used "rightly" in your opinion?
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Old 11.02.2015, 21:59
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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Genuine question - When is torture used "rightly" in your opinion?
Do you have to ask?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_(TV_series)
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  #33  
Old 11.02.2015, 22:09
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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Genuine question - When is torture used "rightly" in your opinion?
When there is a chance using it can get vital information that would not otherwise be gained through conventional means. To say torture has never been effective in getting intelligence in all of the thousands of years it has been used would be a little naieve.

And yes, nothing about it is guaranteed, and it is certainly horrible for the person being tortured, etc etc...

However, modern torture methods are many times safer and less permanently scarring/mutilating than in centuries past. Much less chance of permanent physical damage, if not psychological damage.
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Old 11.02.2015, 23:57
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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However, modern torture methods are many times safer and less permanently scarring/mutilating than in centuries past. Much less chance of permanent physical damage, if not psychological damage.
So when's your "Vacation Destination Guide #43 - Guantanamo" being published Rich?

Safer and less permanently scarring? Sorry, but your western na´vetÚ is genuinely quaint, but totally misguided. Torture by definition is harrowing, traumatic and rarely renders any useful information. I'll even venture to compare its futility to capital punishment, which some see as a solution to major crimes, even though reality begs to differ. The threat of torture can reveal better intel than the real thing. Faced with pain, many prisoners will just talk gibberish to stop the treatment. Source: Various books from the Vietnam War and also from the whole rendition program 10 years ago.
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Old 12.02.2015, 08:57
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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I also think ISIS have done enough to demonise themselves without resorting to killing a helpless woman. That in itself would raise major objections from even their most hardcore backers and turn people from their cause. Its more likely that she was tragically killed by a Jordanian bomb, however that doesn't quite fit the heroic, plucky Jordanian assault narrative.
That is a slap in the face of other victims of ISIS....who I guess were either less helpless or less women...

I can't believe what I've just read.

As for
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That in itself would raise major objections from even their most hardcore backers and turn people from their cause
...No, you can't really believe what you've written..I hope.

Last edited by greenmount; 12.02.2015 at 09:08.
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Old 12.02.2015, 09:36
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Re: Kayla Mueller murdered by ISIS in Syria

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When there is a chance using it can get vital information that would not otherwise be gained through conventional means. To say torture has never been effective in getting intelligence in all of the thousands of years it has been used would be a little naieve.

And yes, nothing about it is guaranteed, and it is certainly horrible for the person being tortured, etc etc...

However, modern torture methods are many times safer and less permanently scarring/mutilating than in centuries past. Much less chance of permanent physical damage, if not psychological damage.
Richdog, you really believe this drivel, normally your posts are ok, controversial maybe, but this....

Torture brings nothing, apart from possible pleasure to the guy doing the torture, pain to the guy being tortured and a certain escalation of events by the tortured guys friends and associates
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