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  #41  
Old 01.05.2015, 17:33
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Undoubtedly these executions did garner more international attention because the Australian media and Australian public had an interest in the case. I agree that it is hypocritical if people are only upset because Australians were executed, and that reaction should be criticised. But just because some people may be hypocritical, doesn't change the justice or injustice of the execution itself. And it is a good thing that these executions got international attention because it brings the death penalty into the public arena for debate and discussion. Perhaps people who do not normally care about these issues will now give it more thought and put pressure on governments to oppose the death penalty in all situations. It has to start somewhere.
It's an injustice in your personal opinion. But not in that of many others in this world. And honestly, no, I don't think people will care for much longer. Maybe the Australian-Indonesian diplomatic relationships will suffer a bit for a while, but the majority of those who are oh-so-outraged will not care for longer than a few weeks, let alone become active in whatever way on the larger issue. If they did, I would find this fantastic, but I very very very much doubt it.

As someone put it on Twitter as part of the "Boycott Bali" reactions (though they seem to have forgotten that Indonesia is more than Bali): "Boycott Bali - until Jetstar have their next 99$ special."

Sorry, I know this is very cynical and again, it is not to be misunderstood as a support for whatever practices Indonesia has. But I'm trying to look at this differently, i.e. as I said before, if this were a different crime and it happened here, why would foreigners be spared from whatever penalty Switzerland has on said crime?

China is executing thousands of people every year and continues to refuse giving out exact numbers. Yet interestingly, China is celebrated as "the next big thing" (which I don't believe, but anyway) and the massive human rights violations are simply brushed aside. How's that for hypocrisy? I guess when the first Westerner is being executed there, things will suddenly turn different. Sorry, I know this is a cynical statement, but again, my POV.

Unfortunately, people tend not to care until they are affected directly in some way. Exceptions apply. And these days, it's very easy to publicly voice your disgust or disagreement or whatever else on whatever issue to make it seem like you care. And people probably do care. For a bit anyway. Three days later, it's forgotten.

Again this does NOT mean in any way that I'm a proponent of the death penalty. One has nothing to do with the other.

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So the State should just execute people without due process then? How do you know the appeal wouldn't have made a difference, if it did not occur? As others have pointed out, the death penalty is irreversible and so it is crucial that all legal appeals are exhausted before it is carried out - all the more so in a case in which there were serious and credible allegations of judicial bribery and corruption.
Their guilt was uncontested, so this is not a case of "penalty for a crime that was never committed" (needless to say I agree that should never happen - even though it does, everywhere, even in the most sophisticated legal systems). That's also the difference to the one who was spared at the last minute - she always said she was given the drugs without her knowledge. The guys never said they were not guilty, because they indeed were. I.e. their penalty (again as a direct consequence of their crime in the country where they committed the crime, not from an against-death-penalty-human-rights-viewpoint) was never in question and never unjustified.

But yes, I'll give you that, they should have had that final chance to appeal. It wouldn't have changed anything, but at least it would have given them and those around them peace of mind to know that they've exhausted every possible legal means. That would have at least been something (and I mean that, no cynicism here)
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  #42  
Old 01.05.2015, 17:41
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

Its a pity the UK does not have firing squads, I'd quite happily volunteer

UK's biggest drug haul

and to the original topic

**shock, horror** drug smugglers shot for smuggling drugs in a country that shoots drug smugglers.
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  #43  
Old 01.05.2015, 17:44
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Their guilt was uncontested, so this is not a case of "penalty for a crime that was never committed" (needless to say I agree with that). They never said they were not guilty, because they indeed were. I.e. their penalty (again as a direct consequence of their crime in the country where they committed the crime, not from an against-death-penalty-human-rights-viewpoint) was never in question and never unjustified.
Going back to my admittedly facetious post, should there be a difference in the sentence for those smuggling drugs into the country versus those smuggling them out? In this case the men were transporting the drugs to Australia, so shouldn't the Aussie Judiciary have had a say in the fate of these men?
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  #44  
Old 01.05.2015, 18:43
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Going back to my admittedly facetious post, should there be a difference in the sentence for those smuggling drugs into the country versus those smuggling them out? In this case the men were transporting the drugs to Australia, so shouldn't the Aussie Judiciary have had a say in the fate of these men?
No, they got what they deserved in that country.

I'm pretty sure Australia is 'secretly' thankful the drugs and the smugglers never made it back to Australia.
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  #45  
Old 01.05.2015, 20:46
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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No, they got what they deserved in that country.

I'm pretty sure Australia is 'secretly' thankful the drugs and the smugglers never made it back to Australia.
It was the Australians who tipped Indonesia off in the first place.
The question I ask is that they informed the Indonesians fully knowing that they would be killed, does that make it an execution by proxy by the Australian government?
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  #46  
Old 01.05.2015, 21:17
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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It was the Australians who tipped Indonesia off in the first place.
The question I ask is that they informed the Indonesians fully knowing that they would be killed, does that make it an execution by proxy by the Australian government?
I get the feeling the Australian government are not daft and think more about the Australians than the 'outside' world.
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  #47  
Old 01.05.2015, 21:37
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

Could a mod please change the thread title from:

Bali Nine duo - not looking good.

To:

Bali Nine duo - couldn't get any worse.



Thanks
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  #48  
Old 01.05.2015, 22:26
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

If I were an Aussie I would be proud that my government fought hard to save fellow citizens especially given that some of those executed were clearly rehabilitated and of no danger to society. Some countries governments don't fight for their own citizens (Indians in the Gulf countries), shame on them, don't blame the Aussies for trying to protect their own.

Yes those convicted drug smugglers screwed up and should have been punished but not with their lives.

The argument that China executes 3000 of its own every year is a red herring. It doesn't make state executions ok.
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  #49  
Old 01.05.2015, 22:41
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

Indonesia's actions are reprehensible. and the country should be sanctioned in an extreme manner.

What a bunch of savages.

Tom
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  #50  
Old 01.05.2015, 22:52
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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If I were an Aussie I would be proud that my government fought hard to save fellow citizens especially given that some of those executed were clearly rehabilitated and of no danger to society. Some countries governments don't fight for their own citizens (Indians in the Gulf countries), shame on them, don't blame the Aussies for trying to protect their own.

Yes those convicted drug smugglers screwed up and should have been punished but not with their lives.

The argument that China executes 3000 of its own every year is a red herring. It doesn't make state executions ok.
What about the lives the drugs destroy?
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  #51  
Old 02.05.2015, 03:47
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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What about the lives the drugs destroy?
I agree it's very sad. On the other hand there is some personal choice in taking drugs so the smugglers are also to a certain extent just supplying demand.

In this specific case some of the drug smugglers were clearly rehabilitated. They should have been punished but not with their lives.

Last edited by MidfieldGeneral; 02.05.2015 at 04:03.
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  #52  
Old 02.05.2015, 09:14
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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What about the lives the drugs destroy?
Epidemic drug use is as socialogical symptom of an imbalanced society..there is a distinct correlation between crime / addiction and the difference between highest / lowest income.

Reducing supply is an important part of combating drug use, but more importantly is reducing demand. That takes more effort than regimes like Indonesia are prepared to make. It's easier to demonise the suppliers.
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  #53  
Old 02.05.2015, 09:24
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Epidemic drug use is as socialogical symptom of an imbalanced society..there is a distinct correlation between crime / addiction and the difference between highest / lowest income.

Reducing supply is an important part of combating drug use, but more importantly is reducing demand. That takes more effort than regimes like Indonesia are prepared to make. It's easier to demonise the suppliers.
Maybe legalising drugs and giving people realist education on the health problems of addiction would be a better solution! The prisons are full of people who commit petty criminal offences to get their fixes or for possession. Criminalisation has never stopped people from using drugs.

The big criminals are the Cartels and Mafias who control the trade, but they only do that as there is a higher (no pun intended) economic value in illicit products. Take out prohibition, tax and educate and the problems will gradually diminish.
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  #54  
Old 02.05.2015, 09:51
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

Why is everyone saying and accepting that these guys where rehabilitated? In a very controlled environment while fighting for there lives they where good boys, big deal, they would have to be pretty stupid not to be. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have gone straight back to there old profitable lives had they ever got out as my previous example highlighted
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Old 02.05.2015, 09:53
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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I agree it's very sad. On the other hand there is some personal choice in taking drugs so the smugglers are also to a certain extent just supplying demand.
There is also some personal choice in smuggling drugs. It's not as if the Indonesians keep their stance on drug smuggling a secret.



I am anti death penalty, but I have to admit that I have very little sympathy in this case. They knowingly took the risk in a country where the consequences of being caught were explicitly clear, and they got caught.
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  #56  
Old 02.05.2015, 11:48
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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The argument that China executes 3000 of its own every year is a red herring. It doesn't make state executions ok.
Who said it makes it ok?
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Old 02.05.2015, 12:11
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

The death penalty is always wrong! Simple as that !
The biggest problem, as an example, the USA : You often have innocent poor people that were poorly defended on death row and it is found over and over again that they were innocent to begin with and freed after decades of incarceration. Even, as in this case, they were guilty, and convicted to the laws of the land, doesn't make the death penalty right.
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  #58  
Old 02.05.2015, 12:22
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Who said it makes it ok?
Apologies if I midunderstood you but two wrongs don't make a right. I think you were suggesting we are being hypocritical by ignoring what goes on in China.
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Old 02.05.2015, 12:23
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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There is also some personal choice in smuggling drugs. It's not as if the Indonesians keep their stance on drug smuggling a secret.



I am anti death penalty, but I have to admit that I have very little sympathy in this case. They knowingly took the risk in a country where the consequences of being caught were explicitly clear, and they got caught.
Flagging a barbaric inhumane rule in bright red does not make it any more acceptable imho.
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Old 02.05.2015, 12:25
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Why is everyone saying and accepting that these guys where rehabilitated? In a very controlled environment while fighting for there lives they where good boys, big deal, they would have to be pretty stupid not to be. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have gone straight back to there old profitable lives had they ever got out as my previous example highlighted
It's good to be cynical in these cases and of course they have to prove they have been rehabilitated but surely as humans they deserve a second chance if they are truly sorry
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