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Old 26.03.2015, 01:07
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Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

Spain is currently going through the process of offering citizenship to descendants of Jews who were expelled in 1492, quote here.
Madrids parliament voted in favour today, now just needs Senate approval.

Good to see such actions but I wonder how many people really care what happened 600+ years ago.
Also I wonder how they can check such descendants are real; they expect about 100 thousand people may be eligible!

I also wonder if people who are successful will have to comply with the Spanish tax laws on world wide assets
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Old 26.03.2015, 02:22
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Spain is currently going through the process of offering citizenship to descendants of Jews who were expelled in 1492, quote here.
Madrids parliament voted in favour today, now just needs Senate approval.
...
Good first step.
How about the Muslims?

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Good to see such actions but I wonder how many people really care what happened 600+ years ago.
...
People from the old world do.

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Also I wonder how they can check such descendants are real; they expect about 100 thousand people may be eligible!
...
Sounds not many to me. There are millions of Sephardic jews in the world, some of whom even still speak or understand Ladino till today.

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I also wonder if people who are successful will have to comply with the Spanish tax laws on world wide assets
That's the minor aspect. The good one is to fulfill historical responsibility, if something like that exists. Would have been more helpful for those who needed it at that time, i.e. to do so some 75 years ago (if Franco had wanted, he could have done so), but still ...

P.S. After reading the article, the big error those Spanish legislators do, is the reduction of what is "Spanish" or "Ladino" or "Djudeo-Espanyol" to Spain in its actual modern borders, which is extremely limited in the matter of concept and mentality. Once Spain was so much more than that small minded, rather foolish approach could suggest.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 26.03.2015 at 02:40.
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Old 26.03.2015, 04:42
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Spain is currently going through the process of offering citizenship to descendants of Jews who were expelled in 1492, quote here.
Madrids parliament voted in favour today, now just needs Senate approval.

Good to see such actions but I wonder how many people really care what happened 600+ years ago.
Also I wonder how they can check such descendants are real; they expect about 100 thousand people may be eligible!

I also wonder if people who are successful will have to comply with the Spanish tax laws on world wide assets

How many ? Quite many ! The Andalussiya matter is still well in the minds of Arabs. Fairuz had a successful song named Andalussiya and already Umm-Khultoum sang about the Topic. There are city-quarters in Oran and other places along the Med-Coastline which are inhabited by descendents of fled Andalussiyans. Many Andalussiyans of Jewish origin fled via Marseille to the Alsace Region (Colmar and Schledttstadt/Sélestat). Oran still is proud to be THE liberal City in the Country due to that influx
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Old 29.03.2015, 22:40
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

That move is bollocks in my view. These were different times with different rules based on a completely different world view. It was a focking aristocracy, the concept of "liberté, égalité, fraternité" hadn't even been thought of, let alone human rights or the concept of nationality as it's known today.

You can't claim back over centuries. You just can't.
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Old 30.03.2015, 02:08
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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That move is bollocks in my view. These were different times with different rules based on a completely different world view. It was a focking aristocracy, the concept of "liberté, égalité, fraternité" hadn't even been thought of, let alone human rights or the concept of nationality as it's known today.

You can't claim back over centuries. You just can't.

The Reconquista and the Inquisition is seen as a positive thing by Roman Catholic Spain but still as deplorable on the Arab side. The various emirates in Andalussiya had nothing to do with democratic ideals of course, but neither with Religion but everything with Arabism, so that Jews could Play an important role
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Old 30.03.2015, 04:58
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

I laud Spain's effort as I think that Europe really needs to work on integrated Jews, I hear Jews are leaving Paris in droves due to antisemitism, but is Spain be any better?

As for not being able to go back centuries- well Look at Israel. Isn't it about time that Jews be allowed to live in Peace worldwide.
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Old 30.03.2015, 06:20
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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I laud Spain's effort as I think that Europe really needs to work on integrated Jews, I hear Jews are leaving Paris in droves due to antisemitism, but is Spain be any better?

As for not being able to go back centuries- well Look at Israel. Isn't it about time that Jews be allowed to live in Peace worldwide.

A) as THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair
shows, Anti-Semitism was up in France more than a century ago
-
Spain drove the Jews out by various means including the inquisition


B) but the Jews were well integrated in Europe in the 19th Century


A-2) Jews leaving Paris now are either exceedingly slow (a century) or utterly stupid
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Old 30.03.2015, 06:50
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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A) as THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair
shows, Anti-Semitism was up in France more than a century ago
-
Spain drove the Jews out by various means including the inquisition


B) but the Jews were well integrated in Europe in the 19th Century


A-2) Jews leaving Paris now are either exceedingly slow (a century) or utterly stupid
Valid info Wolli, but the anti-semitism in France is carried away now by immigrants. Jews are leaving because of the more or less recent attacks.

And they are well integrated in Europe, they've been integrated longer than we could remember. Take any European country (except, maybe, a few) and look for the Jewish personalities or communities.
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Old 30.03.2015, 08:07
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

This report was before the hyper cache attack:

"At the Jewish Agency in Paris there has been a surge in applications for assistance to emigrate to Israel. The agency estimates 5,000 will leave this year — the highest ever."

The antisemitism had been building since before 2012:

"The situation has been deteriorating over the past few years. In 2012, three children and an adult were shot and killed at the Jewish School in Toulouse. And in May, killings at the Jewish Museum in Brussels by a shooter later identified as French raised the anxiety level higher."

"according to published reports, it is estimated that only a small percentage of France’s estimated 6.5 million Muslims harbor extremist views. And the people we spoke to in this predominantly Muslim area of Paris said there is a difference between being critical of Israel’s actions and being anti-Semitic." yet the attacks involved Muslim extremists.

I believe that 'the hate' that French Muslims suffer, needs a vent. The hate is compounded with the anger that Muslims feel about the increasing illegal settlements in Palestine. They cannot vent their anger towards French authorities as the public will just reply " Don't like it then leave".

The anti-semitism amongst European authorities andorses the venting of frustrations against Jews, by turning a blind eye. So the Jews and Muslims fight each other and the tensions were allowed to build.

To me it is sickening that so many who criticize Palestinian actions and intolerance towards the state of Israel, never question the reason for the mass exodus to Israel; namely the continuing antisemitism in Europe.

It's OK to blame the Muslims and to blame the Jews, even to blame low-level neo Nazi thugs, but to blame the traditional adn isntitutionalized values that allow continued racism and antisemitism, that would be too disruptive.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/a-new...eaving-france/

Last edited by Hoppy; 30.03.2015 at 08:08. Reason: link added
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Old 30.03.2015, 14:20
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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The anti-semitism amongst European authorities andorses the venting of frustrations against Jews, by turning a blind eye. So the Jews and Muslims fight each other and the tensions were allowed to build.

To me it is sickening that so many who criticize Palestinian actions and intolerance towards the state of Israel, never question the reason for the mass exodus to Israel; namely the continuing antisemitism in Europe.

It's OK to blame the Muslims and to blame the Jews, even to blame low-level neo Nazi thugs, but to blame the traditional adn isntitutionalized values that allow continued racism and antisemitism, that would be too disruptive.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/a-new...eaving-france/
Oh Hoppy, the attacks are only the top of the iceberg, carried on by radical individuals. The rather sad truth is that many non-Muslim Europeans harbour antisemitic prejudices and hatred. Some of them, the neo-nazi low life enjoy vandalising a Jewish cemetery here, a synagogue there.
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Old 30.03.2015, 15:04
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

Frankly, who wants to go to Spain with the mess its in. Huge anti-semitism. As a Sephardic Jew I'll pass on the offer. Living in France makes me nervous. I have to hide any ounce of "Jewishness" even a simple necklace. Particularly in high immigrant areas. The offer of citizenship for Jews is nothing new it's been around for years they just changed some of the rules.

Last edited by Fidgety; 30.03.2015 at 15:17.
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Old 30.03.2015, 16:03
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Frankly, who wants to go to Spain with the mess its in. ...
I can think of 2 groups:
1. Jews in Turkey. many speak Ladino and can prove Sephardi ancestry. Many already left, a Spanish passport can accelerate the trend.
2. Christian descendants of Marranos in central & south America. learning Ladino is easy for Spanish speaking people. It's much easier to enter the U.S with a Spanish passport than with a Mexican one.
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Old 30.03.2015, 23:24
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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I can think of 2 groups:
1. Jews in Turkey. many speak Ladino and can prove Sephardi ancestry. Many already left, a Spanish passport can accelerate the trend.
2. Christian descendants of Marranos in central & south America. learning Ladino is easy for Spanish speaking people. It's much easier to enter the U.S with a Spanish passport than with a Mexican one.
I have friends in the 1st group though they just get the EU passport at the moment. Fortunately it has not come to the stage (yet) where they feel themselves unsafe in Turkey.
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Old 31.03.2015, 00:23
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Valid info Wolli, but the anti-semitism in France is carried away now by immigrants. Jews are leaving because of the more or less recent attacks.

And they are well integrated in Europe, they've been integrated longer than we could remember. Take any European country (except, maybe, a few) and look for the Jewish personalities or communities.

Anti-Semitism in France goes against all sorts of Semites, Arabs and Jews alike. This is why the Supreme Rabbi of Paris has built up an alliance with the Arabs. A lot of violence comes from French Neo Nazis
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Old 31.03.2015, 10:36
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Anti-Semitism in France goes against all sorts of Semites, Arabs and Jews alike. This is why the Supreme Rabbi of Paris has built up an alliance with the Arabs. A lot of violence comes from French Neo Nazis
And yet, France is not that bad re. racism or prejudices against immigrants. I think the numbers are pretty low, compared to other countries. Arabs have their own prejudices too, anyway.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...re-racist.html
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Old 31.03.2015, 21:00
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

I am an equal opportunity racist. I come from a family with nationalities comparable to the United Nations, family meetings are so much fun we all give as good as we get and often switch sides! I think that none of us are immune to holding racist views at least temporarily, but it is how you enact those racist views that is important.
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Old 01.04.2015, 05:32
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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I am an equal opportunity racist. I come from a family with nationalities comparable to the United Nations, family meetings are so much fun we all give as good as we get and often switch sides! I think that none of us are immune to holding racist views at least temporarily, but it is how you enact those racist views that is important.


Then you also know that to speak with relatives in their language, even if you are quite profiicient in that language, can be most exceedingly tiring
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Old 01.04.2015, 07:08
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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Then you also know that to speak with relatives in their language, even if you are quite profiicient in that language, can be most exceedingly tiring
I actually think I speak more fluently when tired. My higher cognitive executive control (prefrontal lobes?) center switches off, stops trying to translate between languages and the autopilot at the back of my head kicks in and I'm flying. Just like drunks think they are brilliant dancers until they see themselves on film the next morning.
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Old 02.04.2015, 06:49
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Re: Sephardic Jews to get Spanish citizenship

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I actually think I speak more fluently when tired. My higher cognitive executive control (prefrontal lobes?) center switches off, stops trying to translate between languages and the autopilot at the back of my head kicks in and I'm flying. Just like drunks think they are brilliant dancers until they see themselves on film the next morning.

Well, when switching languages, try to THINK in the other language. Try NOT to translate. Be careful when translating jokes as many jokes simply fail in other languages. Some simply do not work. There are exceptions like the one about Hama/Syria Why do those of Hama keep the lights on in their houses during the day ? >> Because they want to save sun energy
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