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  #181  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:39
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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far right party does not equate nazi. You are taking shortcuts and simplistic does not mean simple. SVP or Front national are far right but no one said they are nazi.
Hah... I just saw the name of the second party. Canada had a neo-nazi party called the "National Front" ... I think it was undercut by the Heritage front (another neo-nazi group).
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  #182  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:42
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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far right party does not equate nazi. You are taking shortcuts and simplistic does not mean simple. SVP or Front national are far right but no one said they are nazi.
The joke there is that Nazis were arguably Left-Wing Liberals.
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  #183  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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The joke there is that Nazis were arguably Left-Wing Liberals.
Liberal, only if you stretch the definition. but left-wing, yes.
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  #184  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:54
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

And did you even read that document? For example it clearly shows that for people not born in UK, in almost all groups (with one exception) there is an increase in employment rates (refer fig 1). Fig 2 clearly shows that the male employment rates of India, and other Europe is pretty much same as that of USA and Aus-NZ group (mid eighties). I disregarded the female participation simply because how females are treated in differnet cultures is a matter of separate debate and often they aren't the 'primary' immigrant. Now we move to table 1, the change in employment rate for males is positive for most countries, but negative for UK, USA and Canada. Even on absolute scales the figures for Nigeria surpasses that of US, Ireland, Germany etc. Finally table 2, the male inactivity rate of Bangladesh is around the same as that of US and UK. African nations like Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Uganda and Zimbabwe are doing better (with only Somalia sticking its neck out at 31.4%)
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  #185  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:57
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

yep, that made me chuckle, but I was too lazy to post anything
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  #186  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:57
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Have you actually talked to a successful asylum seeker? Like met for coffee with documents and listened? One step further, have you met someone that works as a therapist for asylum seekers, or even a translator for therapists of asylum seekers? The burnout rate for even translators is quite high. In Switzerland at least, there's only one therapy centre that deals with asylum seekers and refugee victims of torture.
Actually I have. I'm even married to her.

She quit because she couldn't deal with all the dishonesty and the lawyers constantly taking the piss and teaching their clients to tell lies and take the piss even more.
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  #187  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:58
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Hah... I just saw the name of the second party. Canada had a neo-nazi party called the "National Front" ... I think it was undercut by the Heritage front (another neo-nazi group).
So all parties with a similar name must be similar?
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  #188  
Old 23.04.2015, 13:17
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Yes if the country signed the Geneva Convention relating to the status of Refugees.
yes, but this is an overstatement of the country's obligations under the Convention, which are limited to non-expulsion of a refugee who enters the country unlawfully only so long as the refugee entered directly from the country in which their status as a refugee was created, i.e. their home country. under the Convention (leaving aside commentaries and recommendations made by various organizations, which are not binding in any legal sense on the signatory nations to the Convention), it would therefore be impossible for any refugee to enter Switzerland by anything other than airplane. and, given current air travel security policies in Europe, I would be surprised if any person were able to travel to Switzerland by airplane without first demonstrating a legal right to do so.

I realize that many countries, including Switzerland, have established internal laws and policies that provide broader protections than the Convention, but those are internal laws and can be changed at any time, which is part of the entire debate across most of Europe.
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  #189  
Old 23.04.2015, 13:25
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

The issue with this is the lawlessness and the chaos. There should be a legitimate process for applying for immigration. Anyone that tries to circumvent it by illegally crossing should mandatorily be disqualified or put at the very back of the queue. By not doing so, and allowing illegal crossings to succeed, it encourages it. We'll see more deaths, and the situation will spiral. I think the Australians have such policies. What is wrong with the model the Australians implemented?
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  #190  
Old 23.04.2015, 13:35
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Why don't they go to Canada? Plenty of space and resources there. Chop wood, fish salmon, kill bears. Work will be guaranteed, Canada needs new people.

Hell, I'll even chip in some cash for the boats to go all the way to Canada!

Or they don't want to go there because they will actually need to work?
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  #191  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:12
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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African nations like Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Uganda and Zimbabwe are doing better (with only Somalia sticking its neck out at 31.4%)
Nigeria aside, how many immigrants are do you suppose are arriving in boats from these countries? I'll tell you, pretty much none. This year alone, Somalia has provided the third greatest amount of people filling these boats. Now does it make sense?
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I disregarded the female participation simply because how females are treated in differnet cultures is a matter of separate debate and often they aren't the 'primary' immigrant.
Nice that you can "disregard" the female statistics. I guess this means they don't require being provided for either.
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  #192  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:19
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Why don't they go to Canada? Plenty of space and resources there. Chop wood, fish salmon, kill bears. Work will be guaranteed, Canada needs new people.

Hell, I'll even chip in some cash for the boats to go all the way to Canada!

Or they don't want to go there because they will actually need to work?
So I was a refuge to Canada. I did not arrive on a boat (because that would be stupid), but my sister-in-law's parents did, but alas they were not refugees but immigrants from Italy. I digress... I'm not sure what you're getting at, but one of my divorced parents is 68 and still works every day to make ends meet since they had no way to plan for retirement until they were 40!

I had a cousins that arrived in Sweden as refugees in the 80s, they had to redo their engineering degrees, but at least they will retire more comfortably than my parents did. I'm glad what drove them to run was timed well for them?

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Actually I have. I'm even married to her.

She quit because she couldn't deal with all the dishonesty and the lawyers constantly taking the piss and teaching their clients to tell lies and take the piss even more.
So I know one too, and this is pretty far from the story she told me... of burnout after less than two years with benefits to help her retrain in another field because she was too traumatised.

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Nobody gets a free ride.

If stuff appears to be free its because people want it that way and are prepared to pay for it with taxes.

Our society thus exists because of a delicate state of consensus. You destroy that consensus and you lose the good with the bad.
Essentially, every kid in the west gets a free ride. They get free everything at the cost of their parents and government. They can decide to work a bit and make it, work moderately hard and strike it... or they can decide to do nothing and ... well, still not starve or die because of it. There really isn't anything different between a kid born in Switzerland and a kid born in Lesotho, except for their parents' socio-economic and national status.

Anyhow, that's the point I was trying to make. Being born in Switzerland, doesn't make someone more deserving to benefit from Switzerland, it just makes them lucky enough to get it.
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  #193  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:23
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Anyhow, that's the point I was trying to make. Being born in Switzerland, doesn't make someone more deserving to benefit from Switzerland, it just makes them lucky enough to get it.
Being born in Switzerland does not automatically make one a Swiss citizen. But a Swiss citizen definitely has benefits and privileges a non-Swiss citizen does not. That is just a simple fact.
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  #194  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:23
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Why don't they go to Canada?
Or even South Africa? There they just burn their unwanted immigrants alive instead of complaining about them on internet forums.
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  #195  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:32
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Essentially, every kid in the west gets a free ride. They get free everything at the cost of their parents and government. They can decide to work a bit and make it, work moderately hard and strike it... or they can decide to do nothing and ... well, still not starve or die because of it. There really isn't anything different between a kid born in Switzerland and a kid born in Lesotho, except for their parents' socio-economic and national status.
No. Right now it may be the case, but this has not always been so and may not always remain so. It is only so because people have decided they wanted it to be thus and have agreed to finance the free stuff. If too many people take the piss, attitudes will change and generosity will lessen. Greed can erode social cohesion and destroy solidarity. The consensus of providing free stuff is not set in stone. It is not an inalienable right. In fact many countries are already chipping away at their social security systems. The future will see less free stuff, not more.

By the way, the government doesn't give you anything. Government might like you to think they do, but forget it. They only redistribute other people's stuff. And the problem in a democracy is, that you need their permission to do that. If too many people wake up smelling the rat and seeing things aren't as they want, woosh goes your free stuff. Maybe the people taking the piss need to think about that one (and I'm not just talking about the poor, this includes lawyers, managers and others).

Have you ever thought about why the kid born in Lesotho doesn't get loads of free stuff? Do you really think those reasons can never come to Switzerland?
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  #196  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Nigeria aside, how many immigrants are do you suppose are arriving in boats from these countries? I'll tell you, pretty much none. This year alone, Somalia has provided the third greatest amount of people filling these boats. Now does it make sense? .
Again refer to the same document that you linked. Table 3 gives the absolute numbers, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Ghana and Uganda are below Australia, US, South Africa, Ireland, Germany and France!! While Kenya and Nigeria are below Germany, South Africa and the US.

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Nice that you can "disregard" the female statistics. I guess this means they don't require being provided for either.
And how is that implied? It only means that they are provided for by the male who is presumably working. It means that that particular male is burdened that wee bit more compared to another person (of say a different ethnicity where this ratio is better). I gave the reason why I disregarded the stats for women. In case you didn't read that, I quote from the paper itself that you linked to: "Clancy (2008) cites study, holidays, and asylum or family ties (including children who come with their parents) as influencing labour market participation by gender. These factors will vary from country to country."

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  #197  
Old 23.04.2015, 14:54
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Being born in Switzerland, doesn't make someone more deserving to benefit from Switzerland, it just makes them lucky enough to get it.
but of course it makes them more deserving, anything else would be 110% contrary to our centuries' old notions of sovereignty and citizenship. if my citizenship in a country doesn't make me more deserving of the rights and privileges afforded by the country, after all, then what is the point of that citizenship?

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  #198  
Old 23.04.2015, 15:01
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

I suppose from the perspective of someone who has never put forth the investment in building and maintaining their own society, what the Swiss have is unfair for the non-Swiss.

Switzerland is a community of communities of communities. Some of these originated from local parishes, Kirche-Gemeinde and City-States. As such, they did put value on looking for ways of taking care of their own. They still do. And if investment was put for their future generations, and it is for the benefit of their children, who is to say that is unfair? I do the same for my children. I'm sorry if this has not taken place in whatever place you come from, but it's not a Swiss fault, really.
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  #199  
Old 23.04.2015, 15:03
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Yes if the country signed the Geneva Convention relating to the status of Refugees.

Actually the question is whether those who are trying to escape from those "shitty places" (as you wrote) are refugees or migrants. The statement of the head of UN Refugee Agency is clear: more than 50% are refugees (escaping war zones). I am not sure that people who are risking their lives are doing it just for the sole pleasure to disturb your "quality of life".

There is a big question today about responsibility of countries like Switzerland and others who excluded the possibility to apply for refugee status in local embassies. With this decision the countries "force" refugees to take those risks by crossing the sea.

To finish, I'd like to add that some statements made about this tragedy are despicable. I will take the example of Katie Hopkins who wrote that those "refugees" are like cockroaches and labelled them as "feral" and should be stopped with gunships!
I know that the average expat in EF is much more intelligent and human than Katie Hopkins, but I must admit that some nauseous posts in this thread cast some doubts about my statement.
99.999% of asylum seekers in Switzerland are in reality economic migrants.
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  #200  
Old 23.04.2015, 15:10
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Well it's not going to stop, until we stop cashing in on all of this...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...a-iran-iraq-un
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