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  #241  
Old 24.04.2015, 12:35
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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In 2014 the majority of asylum seekers came from Eritrea, Syria and Sri Lanka...
interestingly, of course, 3 sovereign nations that do not recognize the UN Convention. if you bear in mind that "international law" does not actually exist in any enforceable way other than as contractual rights between consenting parties, an argument can certainly be made that citizens of nations who choose not to recognize the UN Convention have no rights under it to begin with.

what nobody likes to talk about, but which always runs as an unspoken undercurrent to the debate around "refugees", is that the UN Convention was meant to address very real and mostly "local" problems that existed in Europe and the immediately surrounding area following WWII. the "refugees" we are talking about today, however, bear no relation whatsoever to the "refugees" that drove the drafting and implementation of the UN Convention back in 1951 - accepting a displaced individual from war-ravaged eastern Europe in the late 40's, 50's and 60's is nothing at all like accepting a displaced individual from war-ravaged Africa in 2015, for reasons that should be relatively obvious. not all of those reasons are legitimate, of course, but at least some of them are. for example, the signatory nations to the UN Convention in 1951 were, by and large, directly responsible for the displacement of the individuals they were agreeing to accept, which is not the case with the nations and displaced individuals we are talking about in 2015.
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  #242  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:10
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The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

This woman is a national disgrace.. even by her own low standards she has plumbed to new depths.



UN human rights chief denounces Sun over Katie Hopkins 'cockroach' column

High commissioner launches scathing attack on tabloid columnist, comparing Hopkins’ migrant remarks with hate language used before Rwandan genocide





Katie Hopkins has come under renewed fire for her controversial views about migrants after the UN high commissioner for human rights delivered a withering critique. Photograph: Ian West/PA





The UN’s human rights chief has attacked the Sun newspaper for publishing an article by columnist Katie Hopkins, branding her use of the word “cockroaches” to describe migrants as reminiscent of anti-Semitic Nazi propaganda.



In a scathing and extraordinary intervention, the UN high commissioner for human rights, Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, points out that the word “cockroaches” was used by both the Nazis and those behind the genocide in Rwanda, and urges the UK government, media and regulators to respect national and international laws on curbing incitement to hatred.



“The Nazi media described people their masters wanted to eliminate as rats and cockroaches,” said Zeid.



“This type of language is clearly inflammatory and unacceptable, especially in a national newspaper. The Sun’s editors took an editorial decision to publish this article, and – if it is found in breach of the law – should be held responsible along with the author.”



But such language, he added, was typical of “decades of sustained and unrestrained anti-foreigner abuse, misinformation and distortion” when it came to the reporting of migrant and refugee issues in the British media.



On 17 April, Hopkins – a columnist for the Sun, Britain’s biggest-selling newspaper – wrote that she was resolutely unmoved by the plight of those risking their lives by crossing the Mediterranean.



Hopkins, a former contestant on the BBC1 show The Apprentice, and perennial courter of controversy, wrote: “No, I don’t care. Show me pictures of coffins, show me bodies floating in water, play violins and show me skinny people looking sad. I still don’t care.”



Hopkins added: “Make no mistake, these migrants are like cockroaches. They might look a bit ‘Bob Geldof’s Ethiopia circa 1984’, but they are built to survive a nuclear bomb. They are survivors.”



The column appeared hours before a fishing vessel packed with migrants capsized off the coast of Libya, with the loss of 800 lives.



Zeid said Hopkins’ column was far from an isolated incident, accusing the British tabloid press of consistently attacking and vilifying migrants.



“This vicious verbal assault on migrants and asylum seekers in the UK tabloid press has continued unchallenged under the law for far too long,” he said.



“I am an unswerving advocate of freedom of expression, which is guaranteed under Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), but it is not absolute. Article 20 of the same covenant says: ‘Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.’”



The commissioner also accused the Daily Express of seeking to whip up anti-foreigner prejudice.



“To give just one glimpse of the scale of the problem, back in 2003 the Daily Express ran 22 negative front pages stories about asylum seekers and refugees in a single 31-day period,” he said.



“Asylum seekers and migrants have, day after day, for years on end, been linked to rape, murder, diseases such as HIV and TB, theft, and almost every conceivable crime and misdemeanour imaginable in front-page articles and two-page spreads, in cartoons, editorials, even on the sports pages of almost all the UK’s national tabloid newspapers.”



But many of the stories, said Zeid, had been “grossly distorted” or subsequently revealed to be “outright fabrications”.



Although he conceded that “a similar process of demonisation” was taking place elsewhere in Europe, he said it was “usually led by extremist political parties or demagogues rather than extremist media”.



Zeid said that all European countries needed to crack down on racism and xenophobia, which, “under the guise of freedom of expression, are being allowed to feed a vicious cycle of vilification, intolerance and politicisation of migrants, as well as of marginalised European minorities such as the Roma”.



He also highlighted the fact that both the ICCPR and elements of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination – both of which have been ratified by the UK and other European countries – had sprung from a desire to avoid a repetition of the Holocaust.



“History has shown us time and again the dangers of demonising foreigners and minorities, and it is extraordinary and deeply shameful to see these types of tactics being used in a variety of countries, simply because racism and xenophobia are so easy to arouse in order to win votes or sell newspapers,” he said.



While there was a valid public debate to be had on migration and refugee issues, he said, the discussions had to be based on facts rather than “fiction or blatant xenophobia”.



Zeid added that twisted and prejudiced reporting was sapping compassion for those fleeing conflict, human rights abuses and economic deprivation, as well as those now drowning in the Mediterranean.



He said the “nasty underbelly of racism” now characterising the migration debate in more and more European countries was even skewing the EU response to the crisis.



Thursday’s emergency meeting of European leaders, he added, had focused “on deterrence and on preventing movement at all costs, [which] risks making the crisis even worse, and could sadly result in further massive loss of life”.



Zeid is the second senior UN official to criticise Hopkins. On Wednesday, François Crépeau, the UN special rapporteur on the human rights of migrants, said people such as the columnist were helping to win votes by “migrant-bashing”.



Crépeau said politicians needed to show proper leadership: “We need people who are able to say to that Sun journalist, ‘You’re wrong and you should know that.’”



News UK had not responded to a request for comment at the time of publication.



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  #243  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:29
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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This woman is a national disgrace.. even by her own low standards she has plumbed to new depths.

Oh no, Katy Hopkins used a nasty word. Let's call her a Nazi and get her put in prison.
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  #244  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:39
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The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Oh no, Katy Hopkins used a nasty word. Let's call her a Nazi and get her put in prison.
She is a grubby opportunist is what she is. A failed reality show contestant who has tried to reinvent herself as the British Queen of Mean. I even doubt that she believes most of her own bile.
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  #245  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:49
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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She is a grubby opportunist is what she is. A failed reality show contestant who has reinvented herself as the British Queen of Mean. I even doubt that she believes most of her own bile.
She's more or less the only outspoken conservative commentator in the UK. She and her family receive constant death threats yet she carries on, as she's entitled, to express her opinion. If people don't like what she says then they can quite simply not read it. Running to the police or the UN because you don't like what she says is quite frankly pathetic.
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  #246  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:55
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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She's more or less the only outspoken conservative commentator in the UK. She and her family receive constant death threats yet she carries on, as she's entitled, to express her opinion. If people don't like what she says then they can quite simply not read it. Running to the police or the UN because you don't like what she says is quite frankly pathetic.
Ah, but you forget the Modus Operandi of tyranny and despotism; control the words, then you control the mind. Control the mind, then you control the world.

Buahahahahaha
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  #247  
Old 24.04.2015, 15:57
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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She's more or less the only outspoken conservative commentator in the UK. She and her family receive constant death threats yet she carries on, as she's entitled, to express her opinion. If people don't like what she says then they can quite simply not read it. Running to the police or the UN because you don't like what she says is quite frankly pathetic.
Read the article, her right to free speech is not under question, it is her incitement to 'national, racial or religious' hatred.
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  #248  
Old 24.04.2015, 16:00
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Not sure if she really incited anyone to hatred, other than hatred towards her own person and her own bad taste.
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  #249  
Old 24.04.2015, 16:22
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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She's more or less the only outspoken conservative commentator in the UK.
nope.

just to name a few and there are many more: Richard Littlejohn, various hacks on The Spectator, Peter Hitchens, Simon Heffer, Julie Burchill and the excellent Douglas Murray. There are many more.

Do you mean "she's more or less the only abusive outspoken conservative commentator in the UK"?

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She and her family receive constant death threats yet she carries on, as she's entitled, to express her opinion. If people don't like what she says then they can quite simply not read it. Running to the police or the UN because you don't like what she says is quite frankly pathetic.
Yep, pathetic
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  #250  
Old 24.04.2015, 16:33
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

I think the approach of trying to silence and marginalize such speech is misguided and fruitless. To do so, you would have to sink one level lower. And even if you somewhat succeed, there is still the underlying realities that do not get addressed, and you just end up stirring a distraction instead of solving a problem. But I wonder if anyone is really concerned about solving real problems anymore, when the only problems they seem to acknowledge are problems of perceptions.
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  #251  
Old 24.04.2015, 16:42
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Read the article, her right to free speech is not under question, it is her incitement to 'national, racial or religious' hatred.
I did read her article, and taken in the context it's a far cry from inciting racial hatred. As she's writing on a controversial topic she's deliberately used this word to provoke a response. The biggest joke is that the left wing media and crusaders have all focussed on this one word, completely ignoring the rest of her commentary. And rather than coming up with counter arguments, they just went crying asking to teacher in order shut Katie Hopkins up.

Owen Jones recently referred to Angela Merkal as "the most monstrous western European leader of this generation". Now which is worse, "monstrous" or "cockroaches"? Neither are true in the context of what they were describing, but no one was calling for Owen Jones to be sacked. Perhaps because no one seriously listens to that absurd, shameless hypocrite anyhow.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-greece-europe
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  #252  
Old 24.04.2015, 16:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I think the approach of trying to silence and marginalize such speech is misguided and fruitless. To do so, you would have to sink one level lower. And even if you somewhat succeed, there is still the underlying realities that do not get addressed, and you just end up stirring a distraction instead of solving a problem. But I wonder if anyone is really concerned about solving real problems anymore, when the only problems they seem to acknowledge are problems of perceptions.
yes I agree that Katy Hopkins is entitled to her opinion but let's not pretend that she is the only outspoken hack in the UK. She's just an inflammatory publicity seeker so it is not surprising she gets this headline attention. There are plenty of articulate right wingers who say what she does in a less abusive non inflammatory way.
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  #253  
Old 24.04.2015, 17:03
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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yes I agree that Katy Hopkins is entitled to her opinion but let's not pretend that she is the only outspoken hack in the UK. She's just an inflammatory publicity seeker so it is not surprising she gets this headline attention. There are plenty of articulate right wingers who say what she does in a less abusive non inflammatory way.
In her business, there is the saying, "There is no such thing as bad publicity". It could be counter-productive to serve it. I didn't even know about her up until this.
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  #254  
Old 24.04.2015, 19:46
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Guess who made this statement and for which recent event?

The United Nations is a global family; its guiding document is the Charter, and where human rights are concerned, the Universal Declaration. The right to the freedom of expression has always been considered as that human right which best answers to the wickedness brought on by tyranny and racism, of the sort that contributed greatly to the Second World War. That right, the freedom of expression, must therefore be argued for vigorously, most especially by this organization: by me, by us. - See more at: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/P....swVdyw46.dpuf
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  #255  
Old 25.04.2015, 02:11
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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an argument can certainly be made that citizens of nations who choose not to recognize the UN Convention have no rights under it to begin with.
Which would be a fallacious argument to begin with. The citizens who are becoming refugee aren't 'sent' by the government. So their status as a refugee isn't anyway related with whether their nation ratified the UN Convention. Few statements from the 'amended' Convention document (http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html) clarifies this matter unambiguously:
1. Grounded in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of human rights 1948, which recognizes the right of persons to seek asylum from persecution in other countries...
2. Convention provisions, for example, are to be applied without discrimination as to race, religion or country of origin.
3. The Convention further stipulates that, subject to specific exceptions, refugees should not be penalized for their illegal entry or stay. This recognizes that the seeking of asylum can require refugees to breach immigration rules.


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what nobody likes to talk about, but which always runs as an unspoken undercurrent to the debate around "refugees", is that the UN Convention was meant to address very real and mostly "local" problems that existed in Europe and the immediately surrounding area following WWII. the "refugees" we are talking about today, however, bear no relation whatsoever to the "refugees" that drove the drafting and implementation of the UN Convention back in 1951 - accepting a displaced individual from war-ravaged eastern Europe in the late 40's, 50's and 60's is nothing at all like accepting a displaced individual from war-ravaged Africa in 2015, for reasons that should be relatively obvious.
Off course this isn't true. The 1951 Convention was amended in 1967 with what is called the 1967 Protocol. The primary achievement of the 1967 Protocol was to remove the geographic and the temporal restrictions that you are alluding to above. So this 'unspoken undercurrent' is just ignorance of the 1967 Protocol.

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  #256  
Old 25.04.2015, 06:36
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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  #257  
Old 25.04.2015, 10:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Which would be a fallacious argument to begin with. The citizens who are becoming refugee aren't 'sent' by the government. So their status as a refugee isn't anyway related with whether their nation ratified the UN Convention. Few statements from the 'amended' Convention document (http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html) clarifies this matter unambiguously:
1. Grounded in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of human rights 1948, which recognizes the right of persons to seek asylum from persecution in other countries...
2. Convention provisions, for example, are to be applied without discrimination as to race, religion or country of origin.
3. The Convention further stipulates that, subject to specific exceptions, refugees should not be penalized for their illegal entry or stay. This recognizes that the seeking of asylum can require refugees to breach immigration rules.

Off course this isn't true. The 1951 Convention was amended in 1967 with what is called the 1967 Protocol. The primary achievement of the 1967 Protocol was to remove the geographic and the temporal restrictions that you are alluding to above. So this 'unspoken undercurrent' is just ignorance of the 1967 Protocol.

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1. "international law" does not exist, at least not in any enforceable manner. the only "power" that exists under "international law" derives under theories of contract.

2. UN Conventions, just like any other treaty instrument, are not capable of granting individuals the right to enforce contract obligations against sovereign nations. it doesn't matter what the instrument says in its written form, or what some UN agency writes in an advisory opinion. in other words, no single individual has any standing whatsoever to challenge a contracting party's breach of the Convention or Protocol.

3. any sovereign nation is perfectly free to rescind its accession to either the 1951 Convention or the 1967 Protocol.

4. the 1967 Protocol did not amend the 1951 Convention at all, it is a separate contract by which parties can agree to be bound by the provisions of the 1951 Convention without reference to time or geographical limitations.

the most important thing most laypeople fail to recognize is that international law is not "law" at all - at best it is nothing more than contractual rights and obligations, and even then the enforceability of those rights and obligations is virtually impossible except as between contracting parties.
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Old 25.04.2015, 11:07
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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4. the 1967 Protocol did not amend the 1951 Convention at all, it is a separate contract by which parties can agree to be bound by the provisions of the 1951 Convention without reference to time or geographical limitations.
As I understand, Protocols are implied to be optional to a Convention. Signing on to a Convention is not a rubber stamp approval of all future Protocols that are attached to it later. And if another Protocol is desired, such as when realities changes, a Protocol can certainly be added.

Perhaps some are confusing it with a fundamentalist religion.
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Old 25.04.2015, 11:18
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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As I understand, Protocols are implied to be optional to a Convention. Signing on to a Convention is not a rubber stamp approval of all future Protocols that are attached to it later. And if another Protocol is desired, such as when realities changes, a Protocol can certainly be added.

Perhaps some are confusing it with a fundamentalist religion.
countries are free to accede to either the Convention or the Protocol, or both. from the perspective of international law, they are separate and distinct from one another.
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Old 25.04.2015, 15:32
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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1. "international law" does not exist, at least not in any enforceable manner. the only "power" that exists under "international law" derives under theories of contract.
Nobody said that the UN Convention is a law. It is a convention and protocol that the ratifying countries have agreed to abide by with some exceptions (which are listed there).

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2. ..... it doesn't matter what the instrument says in its written form, or what some UN agency writes in an advisory opinion. in other words, no single individual has any standing whatsoever to challenge a contracting party's breach of the Convention or Protocol.
I agree that an individual doesn't have the right to challenge a decision by a member nation to breach the convention. But by ratifying the convention the member has agreed that the individual has certain rights as a refugee including illegal entry into the nation and irrespective of the country of origin (and hence that 'unspoken undercurrent' you referred to is a red herring). By the way, it is not a 'contract'.


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3. any sovereign nation is perfectly free to rescind its accession to either the 1951 Convention or the 1967 Protocol.
Again you are correct. As long as you recognize that it is a 'breach'.


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4. the 1967 Protocol did not amend the 1951 Convention at all, it is a separate contract by which parties can agree to be bound by the provisions of the 1951 Convention without reference to time or geographical limitations.
You have clearly not read the document I linked. The very first page has a 'Introductory Note' that states:
"The Convention entered into force on 22 April 1954, and it has been subject to only one amendment in the form of a 1967 Protocol, which removed the geographic and temporal limits of the 1951 Convention."

Not my words. Yes, there could be countries which have ratified 1951 Convention but not the 1967 Protocol and they therefore don't have that obligation.

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the most important thing most laypeople fail to recognize is that international law is not "law" at all - at best it is nothing more than contractual rights and obligations, and even then the enforceability of those rights and obligations is virtually impossible except as between contracting parties.
Again I can't agree more. Laypeople fail to recognize that if there is a 'unspoken undercurrent' it is simply because of ignorance of the convention and protocols their countries have adopted. They are quick to jump to take a part and say that only a certain geography has 'real' problems while ignore the possibility of existence of another part of the document 9may even be an extension or amendment) that removes such boundaries. Laypeople enjoy Berlin Walls :-)

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Sudeepta
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