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  #21  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Inequality in global wealth distribution and resources are the main causes for these acts of desperation. Squandered development opportunities and man's constant short term search for riches and power will slow up improvement for the majority.

The massive gulf between the haves and have nots will continue to see a mass exodus from poverty stricken areas and those suffering from war or religious persecution. Our western arrogance in trying to keep our marble floors clean of the unwashed is a disgusting sign of our total bias towards maintaining our lives of luxury whilst those less fortunate than ourselves strive to just feed themselves or escape death.

If you were looking down on our planet from another point in space, you'd wonder why we couldn't share our resources and live in harmony in this beautiful corner of the universe. Greed, power and our relatively short lifespans seem to have molded the way we opt to live our lives in the developed world.
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  #22  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:23
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Sink all boats in African ports before they are loaded.

Tom
Selectively of course, wouldn't want to stop those legitimate fishermen from earning a living and feeding people. Or better still if we stopped selling refined petrol back to them they wouldn't be able to power the boats...
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  #23  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:25
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Remove the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Return any boats full of migrants back to where they came from. Make them realise the risk to reward of getting to Europe just isn't there. It's that simple.
its not about the "pot of gold", its about them living in broken war-torn failed states with no safety, no future.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:26
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Well for one thing where did most of the weaponry contributing to these conflicts originate? Aside from the continued impact of colonialism Western and Eastern interest continues in the form of Natural resource exploitation, oil and minerals, gems and hardwoods. The impact of the mega corporations in intensive farming and diverting water to farm for export to Europe (i.e. beans and flowers in Kenya) to bottle Coca Cola, to sell back water to the locals: Nestle! This list is endless, the governments are corrupt, but also corrupted by support from our governments to ease the access of international corporations to their resources. Don't think for one second that we don't share a huge blame to how things are turning out globally. Switzerland has been happily turning a blind eye to where the money it looks after comes from for the last 70 years. The followers of Ayn Rand have a lot to answer for.
Also worth mentioning here, the EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) between the EU and the ACP (African, Caribbean, and the Pacific) countries. The premise was to give more market access for exports from Africa. What happened was, for instance, there's huge inflow of tomatoes from European countries coming to Africa, even cheaper than the local ones, while African exports have difficulties in accessing the European market mainly due to the non-tariff barriers.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:27
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

I love this, you really get an idea of peoples true political leanings, Sharks with Lasers though was something brilliant
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:28
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Inequality in global wealth distribution and resources are the main causes for these acts of desperation. Squandered development opportunities and man's constant short term search for riches and power will slow up improvement for the majority. The massive gulf between the haves and have nots will continue to see a mass exodus from poverty stricken areas and those suffering from war or religious persecution. Our western arrogance in trying to keep our marble floors clean of the unwashed is a disgusting sign of our total bias towards maintaining our lives of luxury whilst those less fortunate than ourselves strive to just feed themselves or escape death. If you were looking down on our planet from another point in space, you'd wonder why we couldn't share our resources and live in harmony in this beautiful corner of the universe. Greed, power and our relatively short lifespans seem to have molded the way we opt to live our lives in the developed world.
Have you seen how big Africa is? And how many resources they have? And how many people live there? Have you seen how small Europe is? And how many people live here? Letting them into Europe isn't solving the problem, it's just creating another one here. These people need to help themselves, and Europe could show them the way.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:32
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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its not about the "pot of gold", its about them living in broken war-torn failed states with no safety, no future.
Of course it is. They want to come here becuase everything is FREE. Free schooling, free housing, free health care, free money. Living in a detention center chewing khat may not be our idea of a pleasent life, but it's a damn sight better than the hand to mouth existance back in Africa.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:33
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Well for one thing where did most of the weaponry contributing to these conflicts originate? Aside from the continued impact of colonialism Western and Eastern interest continues in the form of Natural resource exploitation, oil and minerals, gems and hardwoods. The impact of the mega corporations in intensive farming and diverting water to farm for export to Europe (i.e. beans and flowers in Kenya) to bottle Coca Cola, to sell back water to the locals: Nestle! This list is endless, the governments are corrupt, but also corrupted by support from our governments to ease the access of international corporations to their resources. Don't think for one second that we don't share a huge blame to how things are turning out globally. Switzerland has been happily turning a blind eye to where the money it looks after comes from for the last 70 years. The followers of Ayn Rand have a lot to answer for.
I don't see the "we" in this.

It is a lie that governments represent the best interests of the people.

Sure, there are corporations who are taking the piss in Africa. The same corporations are taking the piss in Europe too. Farmers are being forced out of business in Africa. Farmers are being forced out of business in Europe. I don't feel part of any "we" that is causing problems in Africa. It's time we stopped communalizing the blame for big corporations and started naming and shaming.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:35
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Have you seen how big Africa is? And how many resources they have? And how many people live there? Have you seen how small Europe is? And how many people live here? Letting them into Europe isn't solving the problem, it's just creating another one here. These people need to help themselves, and Europe could show them the way.
Of course we could. But Europeans raped their lands and killed their people for a few hundred years. And those that now "invest" in these nations are only in it for profit. We don't do genuine charity these days, we try and create new users who want to buy more product that they don't need.

"Letting them into Europe", that's a very arrogant and emotive stance. You're in a lottery when you're born, the geopolitical advantages of being born into western society guarantees you a food and medical ticket for life. So tough crap on the others and wait out the next three centuries whilst your nation plays catch up from the dark ages whilst we send TV media drones to bring you 4K quality, 3D images of people being thrown off boats.
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Old 22.04.2015, 10:36
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Most of the migrants come from Syria, Eritrea, Somalia, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Gambia, Senegal, Mali, Sudan and Ivory Coast. Afghanistan aside, just how is it Europe's fault that these people want to come here?
I think there was a place of imperialism, followed by bad, corrupt leadership. We need to guide the home countries back on their feet in the way that China has.

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I don't see the "we" in this.

It is a lie that governments represent the best interests of the people.

Sure, there are corporations who are taking the piss in Africa. The same corporations are taking the piss in Europe too. Farmers are being forced out of business in Africa. Farmers are being forced out of business in Europe. I don't feel part of any "we" that is causing problems in Africa. It's time we stopped communalizing the blame for big corporations and started naming and shaming.
Name,shame and hold them to task. Plus, FIND THOSE GIRLS !

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Old 22.04.2015, 10:39
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Of course it is. They want to come here becuase everything is FREE. Free schooling, free housing, free health care, free money. Living in a detention center chewing khat may not be our idea of a pleasent life, but it's a damn sight better than the hand to mouth existance back in Africa.
so you think they regard living in a detention centre where things are FREE is their aim? wow
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  #32  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:46
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I don't see the "we" in this.

It is a lie that governments represent the best interests of the people.

Sure, there are corporations who are taking the piss in Africa. The same corporations are taking the piss in Europe too. Farmers are being forced out of business in Africa. Farmers are being forced out of business in Europe. I don't feel part of any "we" that is causing problems in Africa. It's time we stopped communalizing the blame for big corporations and started naming and shaming.


We have a luxury of living in democratic countries, we are generally not suppressed from expressing our views and we need to stand up to our governments who support big corporations and do not question the actions of big corporations, let alone tax them properly. (but that's another debate, although linked to economies which in turn effects Western consumers and a demand for cheaper product, leading to shitty conditions in developing countries and blah blah blah... ).
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  #33  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:47
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

When I see photos of the refugees coming through, I don't find the sick, the disabled, the elderly, the women with children. I see able bodied men, often young and capable of work. Are these the ones that are truly in need of rescue from the lands they live in? Because they appear to me to be the more able to fend for themselves, the fitter, and are simply exploiting an opportunity for their own advantage and survival.

Don't tell me these "refugess" are devoid of the same greed, selfishness and lust for luxury that people in the "West" are "guilty" of. BS.
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  #34  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:47
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Of course we could. But Europeans raped their lands and killed their people for a few hundred years. And those that now "invest" in these nations are only in it for profit. We don't do genuine charity these days, we try and create new users who want to buy more product that they don't need. "Letting them into Europe", that's a very arrogant and emotive stance. You're in a lottery when you're born, the geopolitical advantages of being born into western society guarantees you a food and medical ticket for life. So tough crap on the others and wait out the next three centuries whilst your nation plays catch up from the dark ages whilst we send TV media drones to bring you 4K quality, 3D images of people being thrown off boats.
I'm not being arrogant at all. It was Cecil Rhodes that said "To be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life". He wasn't wrong. Life isn't fair. Whether you're born ugly, ginger or indeed in Africa, life is always going to be a lot tougher than it is for others. Letting immigrants into Europe isn't going to change this fact. And we do do genunine charity. Look at the billions in aid that get sent out every year. The problem is people need to wake up and realise that aid and charity don't work. Africa isn't going to get anywhere living off handouts from the developed world. We need to trade with Africa and let them help themselves.
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  #35  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:52
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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"Letting them into Europe", that's a very arrogant and emotive stance. You're in a lottery when you're born, the geopolitical advantages of being born into western society guarantees you a food and medical ticket for life. So tough crap on the others and wait out the next three centuries whilst your nation plays catch up from the dark ages whilst we send TV media drones to bring you 4K quality, 3D images of people being thrown off boats.
That's a very emotive stance.

I am not sure even after 3 centuries that tribal disputes in Africa would be resolved. As much damage as Imperialism did to Africa (which for the sake of this thread is to be considered as a single entity - apparently) it could be argued that self-rule has matched it since. Admittedly the tribes are now lobbing ("western designed and built" rocket propelled grenades instead of spears but you can be pretty sure that the fighters haven't got any younger - out stomach for seeing them has got weaker though.

It would be fantastic if wealth could be shared more equitably - but were do you start and where do you finish. Do you turn round to a small business owner and say - your business is now worth 10m CHF - so you have to "give" 5m of that to the "share the wealth" foundation? What motivation is there for a small business owner to grow beyond a threshold - when they have already spent 10-20 years building their business - growing it, employing people, paying taxes, supporting the community?

There is no "right" answer to this question - it doesn't get debated in academia ad-nauseum because an answer has been found. Inequality will always exist it is a simple fact of life, we can't all be born, live and die equal - although technically in death we are - but you get the premise.

I don't believe this is a problem WE can solve for THEM. OUR record in doing so isn't exactly top class.

Iraq: Lets solve THEIR Islamic fundamentalism problem
Iraq: Lets solve THEIR Saddam Hussein problem
Iraq: Lets solve THEIR ISIS problem
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  #36  
Old 22.04.2015, 10:54
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Okay, we have already looked back in history and remembered how Europeans took the piss in Africa. Cecil Rhodes and all that. But let us look back a little further. Prior to European nations developing the naval power to control the world's oceans, the Med was a dangerous place. The Barbary pirates, who were mostly from what is today Algeria and Libya controlled the waters of the Mediterraenean. And not content with only attacking ships, they raided the coasts of Europe for slaves. In many parts of Spain the entire coastal region was uninhabited because of this.

It was only because European powers got their act together and developed and deployed powerful navies that the Mediterranean became safe again. The turning point was when a joint Dutch and British fleet bombarded Algiers in 1816 (a fact our politically correct history books tend to fail to mention). This was only possible because the Europeans had longer range guns than the Africans and could blow the cr*p out of them without themselves being in the range of return fire. When the Africans finally surrendered, they promised among other things to quit slave trading and to stop the harassment of shipping. They didn't really have a choice as their fleet was mostly at the bottom of the sea.

The longer term results was that Europeans took control of the Mediterranean ports to prevent pirates using them, and after that they took control of the hinterland to prevent attacks by raiders and bit by bit the rest of Africa followed. Having a safe passage through the Med was what made the concept of the Suez Canal viable in the first place and redefined the trade patterns of half the globe (as well as catalyzing further colonialism). The value of Africa for Europe was thus far greater than the sum of all things in Africa. When Africans talk about all the things Europeans stole in African they are missing the bigger point. The real value of Africa for Europe was that by controlling it, the African warlords left Europe alone and so let the European nations fight one another without having these outsiders get involved, and also so we could get to India faster. Maybe we also stole some stuff in Africa while there, but that wasn't the reason we went in.

The recent Arab uprising in countries like Libya has returned to power the modern equivalents of the Barbary warlords of old who turn a blind eye (if they don't actually have an active stake in) people smuggling (which is the slave trading of the modern age). Pirates are returning to the Horn of Africa, Meanwhile, Europe is losing its southern countries economically through stupid policy mistakes. The Chinese are building a railway to ship goods directly to Europe. The Silk Route of old is thus being revived and the Suez Canal (which we let the Egyptians have) will be useless when we stop needing those oil tankers.

Next we'll stop knowing about America and the world will be flat.

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Old 22.04.2015, 11:01
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Okay, we have already looked back in history and remembered how Europeans took the piss in Africa. Cecil Rhodes and all that. But let us look back a little further. Prior to European nations developing the naval power to control the world's oceans, the Med was a dangerous place. The Barbary pirates, who were mostly from what is today Algeria and Libya controlled the waters of the Mediterraenean. And not content with only attacking ships, they raided the coasts of Europe for slaves. In many parts of Spain the entire coastal region was uninhabited because of this. It was only because European powers got their act together and developed and deployed powerful navies that the Mediterranean became safe again. A joint Dutch and British fleet bombarded Algiers in 1816. This was only possible because the Europeans had longer range guns than the Africans and could blow the cr*p out of them without themselves being in the range of return fire. When the Africans finally surrendered, they promised among other things to quit slave trading and to stop the harassment of shipping. They didn't really have a choice as their fleet was mostly at the bottom of the sea. The longer term results was that Europeans took control of the Mediterranean ports to prevent pirates using them, and after that they took control of the hinterland to prevent attacks by raiders and bit by bit the rest of Africa followed. Having a safe passage through the Med was what made the concept of the Suez Canal viable in the first place and redefined the trade patterns of half the globe. The recent Arab uprising in countries like Libya has returned to power the modern equivalents of the Barbary warlords of old who turn a blind eye (if they don't actually have an active stake in) people smuggling (which is the slave trading of the modern age). Meanwhile, Europe is losing its southern countries economically through stupid policy mistakes. The Chinese are building a railway to ship goods directly to Europe. The Silk Route of old is thus being revived and the Suez Canal (which we let the Egyptians have) will be useless when we stop needing those oil tankers. Next we'll stop knowing about America and the world will be flat.
Exactly, everyone seems to think that before Imperialism and the Scramble for Africa in the 19th Century that it was some kind of Garden of Eden. From the Muslim conquest and subsequent slave trade to Shaka's expansion of the Zulu empire, conflict has been rife in Africa LONG before the arival of Europeans.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:03
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I do think that the world needs to react to the plight of all these desperate people trying to reach Europe and England. It's so tragic to see people lose there lives in a desperate attempt to leave their countries. Any serious ideas/thoughts on how the world can address this situation before another boat sinks killing hundreds.
If you are so worried, why don't you take 5-6 survivors at you home and host them there?
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:04
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Exactly, everyone seems to think that before Imperialism and the Scramble for Africa in the 19th Century that it was some kind of Garden of Eden.
really? who says this, can you show some evidence?
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:10
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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really? who says this, can you show some evidence?
From Jean-Jacques Rousseau to the Hippies, it seems to be a thing that Europeans assume the rest of the world was happy when it was still primitive.
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