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  #41  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:13
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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so you think they regard living in a detention centre where things are FREE is their aim? wow
If they were just seeking sanctuary they'd stay in Italy. But they don't which means they're after...
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really? who says this, can you show some evidence?
Just scroll down through the comments of any Guardian article on this "developing crisis". You'll find there that we're to blame.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:14
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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From Jean-Jacques Rousseau to the Hippies, it seems to be a thing that Europeans assume the rest of the world was happy when it was still primitive.
And from that same vein of thinking - all injustice in the world was somehow created by Europeans.
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  #43  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:25
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From Jean-Jacques Rousseau to the Hippies, it seems to be a thing that Europeans assume the rest of the world was happy when it was still primitive.
I assume you see the irony in what you have posted. Some European countries were colonial masters for years, I don't think they gave a damn about happiness / being primitive.

Anyway, I don't think pointing the finger at the past is useful at all. Someone posted correctly upthread that this is just the start of the illegal migrants unless the problem is faced head on. Maybe a start would be to track down the illegal traffickers and stop them and their business.

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Just scroll down through the comments of any Guardian article on this "developing crisis". You'll find there that we're to blame.
I just looked up the Guardian site and I found this published on 21-4-2015:

http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...nt-be-tortured

The Guardian journalist clearly points the finger at the Eritrean government, no mention of Europeans being to blame.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.04.2015 at 11:54. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #44  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I assume you see the irony in what you have posted. Some European countries were colonial masters for years, I don't think they gave a damn about happiness / being primitive.
I'm not sure. Everybody needs to reassure their own conscience that the evil they are doing is in reality a misunderstood good. Back then the logic was, Europe is good and Africa is sh*t and therefore we need to go into Africa to fix it. If we make a profit while we're there, well, there ain't nothing wrong with doing well by doing good. Today the logic is Europe is good and Africa is sh*t and therefore in the name of humanity all these immigrants are bettering themselves by coming to us. If they provide cheap labour in our factories and boost our profits, well, there ain't nothing wrong with doing well by doing good. Same twisted logic.

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Anyway, I don't think pointing the finger at the past is useful at all.
He who ignores history is d*mned to repeat it

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Someone posted correctly upthread that this is just the start of the illegal migrants unless the problem is faced head on. Maybe a start would be to track down the illegal traffickers and stop them and their business.
Yes, I very much hope our intelligence services are already working on it.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:46
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Make it illegal?
-Son, they killed your dad and the will come after you. We have no money, no medications and the town is completely destroyed. You have to get out of here and find a safe place.

-What about Europe, I could cross by boat?

-It's illegal

-Oh well, It seems I will be stuck here then.....Say no one ever....

I am appalled by the amount of crap some people think on this thread.
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  #46  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:48
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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-Son, they killed your dad and the will come after you. We have no money, no medications and the town is completely destroyed. You have to get out of here and find a safe place.

-What about Europe, I could cross by boat?

-It's illegal

-Oh well, It seems I will be stuck here then.....Say no one ever....

I am appalled by the amount of crap some people think on this thread.
Would you take them home and host them?
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  #47  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:50
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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It already is illegal, the countries where the boats are originating from, do not have the power to stop them.
Of course they do... but then does the harbour master and the local cops not get their share of the money anymore, do they?

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Again who is buying that raw material, supplying the means to extract it ? Shell, Gazprom... Look what shell did to Nigeria (quick google search): http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faq...tation-nigeria

This has led to civil conflict and radicalization, cause and effect, cause and effect...
Ever been to Western Africa? Not even the locals blame the corruption on Shell... you have a rather naive world view often pushed by the green and very left parties in Europe. I believed the same when I was around 16, but working with emerging markets really changed my perspective - there are tons of people working hard to make Africa a better place... but there are also tons of fundamentally flawed people stealing and destroying anything that was supposed to improve the lives of many as soon as it is in their reach. Blaming this on European history is frankly nothing short of bullshit.

My solution: Let's send them a couple of thousand self-righteous European volunteers a year telling them stories about men, fish and fishing rods...
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:52
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Let them all come. Once Africa is empty we can go there. It has better weather on average and more natural resources.
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  #49  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:52
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Anyway, I don't think pointing the finger at the past is useful at all. Someone posted correctly upthread that this is just the start of the illegal migrants unless the problem is faced head on. Maybe a start would be to track down the illegal traffickers and stop them and their business.
I don't think there has ever been a successful attempt in history to permanently prevent human migratory patterns. At best, it can be staved off for a time. Loz1983 pretty much sums it up - for as long as there is a pay-off to doing so, they will continue to come.

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Remove the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Return any boats full of migrants back to where they came from. Make them realise the risk to reward of getting to Europe just isn't there. It's that simple.
I don't see any signs that Europeans have the resolve to address this. It would take drastic isolationism to close this. It is a position of the far-right, but is quickly negated by the mainstream left.

I think this is just the beginning of the problem. This can grow exponentially. Europeans need foresight to fully assess this situation. At the moment, any such "look into the future" is lambasted as paranoia.

Humanitarian leftists need to be held to account for the mathematics of this situation. At the moment, they seem to be in a dreamy state of wishful thinking. Asleep, actually. We need a sober assessment of what we should do with all these people. Can they be trained and educated to produce? We need smarter and more sober governments to prevent, mitigate, and transfer risks and issue; and contingency plans for social situations. I see no signs of such level of clarity in today's set of governments.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Would you take them home and host them?
you've already made this comment upthread, why is this relevant?
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  #51  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

The smugglers lie, telling the would be immigrants that they'll easily find good work, that they'll easily fit it and be welcome, that they won't get deported once they're across the border, that the journey is safe.

Best bet is to intercept the boats, take the people off them, destroy the boats, arrest the crew and return everyone else, with the possible exception of letting some say on humanitarian grounds, to the nearest safe port in their home country. This will of course cost money to do effectively - especially the last part. But that's the cost of keeping your borders secure.

If there is no safe port in their home country, then there is a duty to grant asylum.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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From Jean-Jacques Rousseau to the Hippies, it seems to be a thing that Europeans assume the rest of the world was happy when it was still primitive.

I think its more to do with happier without industrial exploitation. While we are certainly not the sole cause of problems in Africa, there is a lot the West can do in the interim to help alleviate problems. Blowing up boats and militarizing our borders are not going to help at all and other short term strategies won't stop the mass flow into Europe.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:54
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Would you take them home and host them?
My home is too small but not my country.

We get all offended about animal abuse but to send back an other human being in a country where dead is better than being in there is ok?

No one cross by boat thinking it will be easy peasy. They know the risks but they are ready to take those risks because life at home is worst.

So here is two choice:

Improve their life at home or make space for them here. If they can't make it by sea, they will find an other way.

Resolve the problem at the roots, not try to patch the consequences of those problems.
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  #54  
Old 22.04.2015, 11:55
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Let them all come. Once Africa is empty we can go there. It has better weather on average and more natural resources.
Not to mention the brown sugar.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:57
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I don't think there has ever been a successful attempt in history to permanently prevent human migratory patterns. At best, it can be staved off for a time. Loz1983 pretty much sums it up - for as long as there is a pay-off to doing so, they will continue to come.
if you mean "pot of gold" as the "pay off" then I disagree, if you mean "safety", then you may have a point. I would be surprised if someone as well read as you would think its all about the money
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:58
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Not to mention the brown sugar.
There, they just call it sugar.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:58
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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The smugglers lie, telling the would be immigrants that they'll easily find good work, that they'll easily fit it and be welcome, that they won't get deported once they're across the border, that the journey is safe.

.
No, they don't need to lie. Those ready to take the journey already know it's their only chances, know the risks and consequences.

Risking death by crossing the Med in hope of a chance or staying at home with war, starvation, etc? I'll choose trying to survive no matter what.
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Old 22.04.2015, 11:59
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I think its more to do with happier without industrial exploitation.
Because Africans wear loincloths and live in huts... seriously, you need to get out more. Your view on the "noble savage" is some 300 years late. That's a lot even for Swiss standards.

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Old 22.04.2015, 12:00
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Just to add a little bit of "salt"...

This is the note a trafficker gave to the immigrants on a boat going to Rhodes/Greece...

As you can imagine, there are a lot of things that have to change..here, there and everywhere! Laws on land, in water...

This is not a matter of a couple of politicians sitting around a table and taking decisions...It more complicated than that!

Europe is goint the wrong way!

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Old 22.04.2015, 12:00
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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you've already made this comment upthread, why is this relevant?
It's very relevant, for migrants to come over here, the country needs to host them, feed them, dress them etc, that costs money, my money and your money. I am definately not happy my money to be spent on such projects. If you are happy, do so at your own expense at your own home, but not at mine. I am sure 99.99% of the people living in Europe share this opinion.

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My home is too small but not my country.


Improve their life at home or make space for them here. If they can't make it by sea, they will find an other way.

Resolve the problem at the roots, not try to patch the consequences of those problems.
The country is too small as well.

Why do WE have to improve their life at home or make space here?! Are you living in a fairy tale? Resolve problems at the roots?! That is definitely not OUR responsibility. We have our own problems here, let's face them. Not problems in Africa and rest of the world.

If YOU think those people need help, than help them out of your own pocket and own time. Me and the rest of the people in Europe don't feel like giving charities really.
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