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  #61  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:06
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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If you are happy, do so at your own expense at your own home, but not at mine. I am sure 99.99% of the people living in Europe share this opinion.
Luckily, not true. You would be surprised to learn that MOST people in Europe will be indeed open and willing to contribute to the well-being of other human being, even when they have different skin color or country of origin.

What you will be also surprised to learn is that "why dont you host them in your own house" is kindergarten speak, and has no place in adult conversation.
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  #62  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:07
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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The country is too small as well.

Why do WE have to improve their life at home or make space here?! Are you living in a fairy tale? Resolve problems at the roots?! That is definitely not OUR responsibility. We have our own problems here, let's face them. Not problems in Africa and rest of the world.

If YOU think those people need help, than help them out of your own pocket and own time. Me and the rest of the people in Europe don't feel like giving charities really.
We share the same planet. You are lucky you were born here but it doesn't entitle you to anything more than them.

You don't want them here? Well, find a solution to keep them there then because guess what butterscotch, they won't stop coming as long as life is a shithole there.
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  #63  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:08
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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if you mean "pot of gold" as the "pay off" then I disagree, if you mean "safety", then you may have a point. I would be surprised if someone as well read as you would think its all about the money
You can't separate money from economics, economics from sociology, sociology from humanity, and humanity from morality. Purporting to do so is dreaming, and can get you into a lot of trouble. Like I said, helping is a good sentiment, but the mathematics needs to be held into account by the same pundits.

This is about to change European social structures. A question is how to manage it. Should it be left to its own unfettered course, or should it be intelligently integrated?

I think the EU should just buy a huge Greek Island, dedicate it as a neutral and non-violent entity, where arms are banned, and a new society of refugees and peace-seekers can be established.
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  #64  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:09
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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We need to guide the home countries back on their feet in the way that China has.
You know that was the argument the imperialist regimes gave, that we want to make these countries a little more civilized than they are.

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Old 22.04.2015, 12:11
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I am sure 99.99% of the people living in Europe share this opinion.
I think that at least two thirds of the people of Europe have a bit of a more balanced view: We had plenty of wars in the past and plenty of our own refugees within the continent - and decided to agree on standards how to deal with them. If a person is in immediate risk for their life do we agree to indeed pay the costs to give them a decent life till the war in their home country is over. That's why many Europeans are ok with Syrians coming and staying temporarily. However, there is currently absolutely no legal way to emigrate from Syria. So the boat via Egypt or an even more risky trip to Turkey are your two options.
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  #66  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:13
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Cute and lovely sentiments about how we should all share. Except this is not something you compel and enforce others to do. That easily turns into a nightmare. What you do with this sentiment is to sell whatever you have and give it to them. What others choose to do with theirs is their own business. Fair?
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  #67  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:15
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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You can't separate money from economics, economics from sociology, sociology from humanity, and humanity from morality. Purporting to do so is dreaming, and can get you into a lot of trouble. Like I said, helping is a good sentiment, but the mathematics needs to be held into account by the same pundits.
as I said: "I would be surprised if someone as well read as you would think its all about the money"
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Old 22.04.2015, 12:19
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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We share the same planet. You are lucky you were born here but it doesn't entitle you to anything more than them.

You don't want them here? Well, find a solution to keep them there then because guess what butterscotch, they won't stop coming as long as life is a shithole there.
We had a king once who talked a bit like you.

He was called Eathelred the Unready. He decided that better than fighting these foreign guys coming over the sea in boats, it would be better to give them money to stay at home. And guess what? They took the money but came anyway. And guess what else, he is remembered and respected as one of the wisest kings in history. Not.

The first line of defence must always be force.

After that you can think about the long term things and addressing root causes.

But if a man is bought into hospital with a cardiac arrest, do you send him to the operating room or is it better to start talking about dietary advice?
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  #69  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Lets make Europe poorer and throw in a few wars in between to spice things up.

regards
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  #70  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:21
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Gotta love people living in fairy tales

Keep dreaming. If that gives you good sleep at night, it's all right.

"We share the same planet..."

LOL

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  #71  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:21
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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as I said: "I would be surprised if someone as well read as you would think its all about the money"
This is not a money problem. This is a problem of human inspiration. It is not about resources. Where these refugees come from lies vast resources. But resources on their own is worthless until the mind and will is applied to turn it into value. And this is what is missing in THAT part of the world - the mind and inspiration to create value. Transporting a person from there to here does little good if that person's mind and attitude is not directed towards creating value.
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  #72  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:22
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

We are directly responsible for the disasters in the Mediterranean. The bombing of Libya into failed state status is now coming back to haunt us. The ludicrous idea, propounded by Blair, Robert Cooper and the Henry Jackson Society, that you could improve dictatorial states by massive bombing campaigns that targeted their basic infrastructure, is now a total bust. Sadly so are Iraq and Libya, to the permanent detriment of many millions of people.



We caused and agravated both the Islamic State and the Mediterranean boat disasters, and we caused them with bombs.


But the lack of any effective policing is only part of the problem. What makes people so desperate that they are prepared to give all of the small amount they own, to ruthless gangs, in exchange for a dreadful sea crossing with a one in ten chance of drowning? Most of the refugees are sub-Saharan African. We only see the European end of the saga, not the terrible conditions on the cross Saharan journeys that they start with.


There will be no security anywhere if the world does not address the terrible scourge of African poverty and under-development. What it does show is the utter stupidity in thinking that cutting development aid will increase the economic security of Europe.
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  #73  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:25
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Look at the amount of resources the 'West' has expended on deliberately destabilising the countries, from which these people are now trying to escape. We (the 'West') didn't like Saddam Hussein, Col. Gaddafi, Assad etc. etc. so we supported their downfall (or attempted downfall in the case of Assad) by destroying their security apparatus through bombings and arming 'liberators' etc, destroying their financial systems through sanctions etc. with no thought as to to what would replace these regimes, nurturing only the delusion that the people thus 'liberated' would be rushing to our soldiers bearing bunches of flowers. Instead of flowers, we've got ISIS. OK, Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad & Co. are/were no angels but they built hospitals etc. and kept order in a very mixed population.

Now think how vulnerable our own societies are and what little it would take to put us in the same situation as the escaping refugees. Maybe a pandemic, a breakdown of the financial system, a war or a combination of any of these. who knows. A highly developed society is, in fact, much more vulnerable to the consequences of such a breakdown (the higher up you are, the further you can fall). What happens if there is no food in the Migros or Coop ? Do we start growing carrots on the balcony ? Certainly there are enough weapons around for marauding groups to terrorise the rest of the population.

Interestingly, the recriminations over Libya seem to be a theme in the UK elections and hopefully there will be more open discussion about this and other similarly troubled lands. http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32374871
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  #74  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:28
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Of course they do... but then does the harbour master and the local cops not get their share of the money anymore, do they?

Ever been to Western Africa? Not even the locals blame the corruption on Shell... you have a rather naive world view often pushed by the green and very left parties in Europe. I believed the same when I was around 16, but working with emerging markets really changed my perspective - there are tons of people working hard to make Africa a better place... but there are also tons of fundamentally flawed people stealing and destroying anything that was supposed to improve the lives of many as soon as it is in their reach. Blaming this on European history is frankly nothing short of bullshit.

I have been, and I don't blame and I don't feel I am that Naïve, (I have worked with very poor people in developing countries, people who exist on subsistence living, as a researcher and not a self righteous do gooder) of course there are 10s or 100s of millions of people in Africa who do have it good, who are living well above poverty and I am not blaming European history per se, but a continued economic imperialism from Europe, the Far East, India and the Americas who exploit.


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My solution: Let's send them a couple of thousand self-righteous European volunteers a year telling them stories about men, fish and fishing rods...

I am quite sure there are more then a couple of thousand self righteous volunteers going to developing countries every year to share knowledge and exchange ideas, to help with medical training and develop energy solutions. But that's charity and more often then not, a temporary solution.


Of course there are also emerging and established markets and plenty of potential consumers for not only African products, but the global market, but pushing western shit, I mean luxuries, in countries where the majority is sitting well below the poverty line. That doesn't encourage people to want to stay! Its not only the poor who want out, skilled people are leaving for economic reasons, resulting in a huge intellectual deficit forming, less health care and development maintains the status quo. I wont say I have any answers, but I can sure as hell see some of the problems.
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  #75  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:28
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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This is not a money problem. This is a problem of human inspiration. It is not about resources. Where these refugees come from lies vast resources. But resources on their own is worthless until the mind and will is applied to turn it into value. And this is what is missing in THAT part of the world - the mind and inspiration to create value. Transporting a person from there to here does little good if that person's mind and attitude is not directed towards creating value.
my point exactly, so why do you say upthread that " for as long as there is a pay-off to doing so, they will continue to come."
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  #76  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:28
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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We are directly responsible for the disasters in the Mediterranean. The bombing of Libya into failed state status is now coming back to haunt us. The ludicrous idea, propounded by Blair, Robert Cooper and the Henry Jackson Society, that you could improve dictatorial states by massive bombing campaigns that targeted their basic infrastructure, is now a total bust. Sadly so are Iraq and Libya, to the permanent detriment of many millions of people.
Don't know whether to call it myopia, ignorance or arrogance. The Libyan population and the Arab League themselves asked for that intervention. Oh, but they don't count in the equation, do they? There is a perverted sense of ethnocentric thinking in that, no? They aren't responsible for themselves? I don't think that holds water.


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my point exactly, so why do you say upthread that " for as long as there is a pay-off to doing so, they will continue to come."
A "pay-off" is any kind of benefit. You're the one equating it to money, aren't you? For as long as there is benefit to making these journeys, they will continue to take the risk to do so.
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  #77  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:33
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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A "pay-off" is any kind of benefit. You're the one equating it to money, aren't you? For as long as there is benefit to making these journeys, they will continue to take the risk to do so.
nope, Loz1983 said it was about the "pot of gold" and you said he hit the nail on the head.
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Old 22.04.2015, 12:33
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Look at the amount of resources the 'West' has expended on deliberately destabilising the countries, from which these people are now trying to escape. We (the 'West') didn't like Saddam Hussein, Col. Gaddafi, Assad etc. etc. so we supported their downfall (or attempted downfall in the case of Assad) by destroying their security apparatus through bombings and arming 'liberators' etc, destroying their financial systems through sanctions etc. with no thought as to to what would replace these regimes, nurturing only the delusion that the people thus 'liberated' would be rushing to our soldiers bearing bunches of flowers. Instead of flowers, we've got ISIS. OK, Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad & Co. are/were no angels but they built hospitals etc. and kept order in a very mixed population.

Agree 100%. Unfortunately, the best solution that I see in the short term (next few centuries) is to re-setup and support totalitarian regimes (or continue to support in the currently stable countries) in most of Africa and mid-East. We should not have stood idly by when the Arab spring started. Propping up Assad again would be a good first step.
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Old 22.04.2015, 12:35
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Propping up Assad again would be a good first step.
Yeah, he is running low on chlorine...
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Old 22.04.2015, 12:36
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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But if a man is bought into hospital with a cardiac arrest, do you send him to the operating room or is it better to start talking about dietary advice?
Oh this example doesn't serve you well....

If someone comes to the hospital with a cardiac arrest, you keep him and treat him. You don't send him back straight home.
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