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  #81  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:40
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Oh this example doesn't serve you well....

If someone comes to the hospital with a cardiac arrest, you keep him and treat him. You don't send him back straight home.
This example is very good.

The man represents Africa and his cardiac arrest represents the totally f"cked up state of his economy. So keeping him would equate to .... something they used to call colonialism?
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  #82  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:40
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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nope, Loz1983 said it was about the "pot of gold" and you said he hit the nail on the head.
For someone well-read like you, I would have expected recognition of a literary device.

So the only solution to this is for Europe to freeze any kind of illegal immigration at the local level. This can be done, but there is no political will for it. On a humanitarian level, I think Europe should set up safe havens and refugee camps. But the story of how Europe will give you a free apartment and free money if you somehow make it there needs to be changed and debunked.
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  #83  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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For someone well-read like you, I would have expected recognition of a literary device.

So the only solution to this is for Europe to freeze any kind of illegal immigration at the local level. This can be done, but there is no political will for it. On a humanitarian level, I think Europe should set up safe havens and refugee camps. But the story of how Europe will give you a free apartment and free money if you somehow make it there needs to be changed and debunked.
fair enough, you were using it as a literary device, others aren't.
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  #84  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:44
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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This example is very good.

The man represents Africa and his cardiac arrest represents the totally f"cked up state of his economy. So keeping him would equate to .... something they used to call colonialism?
Well that explains why it's a shitty example
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  #85  
Old 22.04.2015, 12:53
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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For someone well-read like you, I would have expected recognition of a literary device.

So the only solution to this is for Europe to freeze any kind of illegal immigration at the local level. This can be done, but there is no political will for it. On a humanitarian level, I think Europe should set up safe havens and refugee camps. But the story of how Europe will give you a free apartment and free money if you somehow make it there needs to be changed and debunked.
Freeze illegal immigration at a "local level"? What does that even mean? Libya and Eritrea are local? The complete logical fallacy that illegal immigration can be "banned" just leads to laws being passed that increase restrictions on legal immigration.

This debunking could start when the right wing media and political parties stop lying about how illegal immigrants are actually treated, instead of ginning up their base by claiming that lefties want to give illegals free apartments and money.

Imagine a guy in Eritrea, ignorant of politics in Europe, continually seeing articles online in the likes of Weltwoche about how good asylum seekers have it. What will he do next?

As much as I hate to admit it, the Australian policy of forcibly settling boat people in Papua New Guinea and Nauru actually worked in cutting down attempted crossings. Fewer deaths, and Australia gets to stay shinier, but ultimately the genuine cases who do need protection from persecution will now be persecuted in Papua New Guinea instead of Afghanistan.
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Old 22.04.2015, 13:01
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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No, they don't need to lie. Those ready to take the journey already know it's their only chances, know the risks and consequences.

Risking death by crossing the Med in hope of a chance or staying at home with war, starvation, etc? I'll choose trying to survive no matter what.
That may be the case for some. But it certainly isn't for all. I very much doubt that the smugglers are entirely candid about the risks, since they want to extract money from their clients.
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  #87  
Old 22.04.2015, 13:06
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Freeze illegal immigration at a "local level"? What does that even mean? Libya and Eritrea are local? The complete logical fallacy that illegal immigration can be "banned" just leads to laws being passed that increase restrictions on legal immigration.
I don't think the social benefits were invented by the Right, and that their allegations are totally unfounded, are they?

No, "local" being communities in Europe. For example, my Gemeinde can theoretically refuse to settle any immigrant who have come over into Europe illegally. But it isn't politically savory yet. At the moment, the benefits of allowing legal immigration far outweigh the costs of the present situation.

I suspect there is considerable economic interests in allowing this situation to continue, not just from irresponsible leftists, but also from the Industrial base. Afterall, these refugees represent low-cost human resources they can exploit when it suits them, or ignore and sweep under the rug when it does not suit them. Businesses don't need to pay for these refugees, governments and taxpayers do.
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Old 22.04.2015, 13:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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No, "local" being communities in Europe. For example, my Gemeinde can theoretically refuse to settle any immigrant who have come over into Europe illegally. But it isn't politically savory yet. At the moment, the benefits of allowing legal immigration far outweigh the costs of the present situation.

I suspect there is considerable economic interests in allowing this situation to continue, not just from irresponsible leftists, but also from the Industrial base. Afterall, these refugees represent low-cost human resources they can exploit when it suits them, or ignore and sweep under the rug when it does not suit them. Businesses don't need to pay for these refugees, governments and taxpayers do.
The settlment of "illegals" in Switzerland is a top down approach: the "illegals" get spread across kantons, who then spread across gemeindes. Each level can refuse but the reality is that if the number grow they'll be forced to whether they like it or not.

The biggest issue facing gemeindes at present is finding landlords willing to rent property for these tenants.
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  #89  
Old 22.04.2015, 13:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Worth to read and to watch

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ya-boats-italy
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  #90  
Old 22.04.2015, 13:46
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

who cares , but don`t send them here !!!!!!
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Old 22.04.2015, 14:00
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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You are lucky you were born here but it doesn't entitle you to anything more than them.
I was lucky to be born a human rather than a cow, too, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying a steak every now and then.



I am always baffled at the people who think that the best way for western nations to "atone" for their unwise and exploitative involvement in the third world is...

...to unwisely and exploitatively involve themselves in the same third world.



and let's face it, there is absolutely no meaningful way for any western nation to engage in the third world without exploitation occurring on some level or another. and, frankly, why should there be? I am completely ashamed by my home country's engagement in the third world, and nothing would make me happier than to see my home country pack up all of its soldiers, business interests and capital investment and go back home. but I can't think of anything that would be more immoral than to see my home country try to solve the problems of poverty and violence halfway around the world when more than 25% of the citizens of my home country are living in poverty and violence within their own borders.

it is absolutely a shame and a tragedy that people are dying trying to emigrate illegally to countries other than their own, but I fail to see any moral or other basis upon which it becomes my shame or my tragedy.
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  #92  
Old 22.04.2015, 14:07
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Guys, you arn´t seeing it from out of my window. In the meantime I have done a bit of work for AWAS (​Agency for the Welfare of Asylum Seekers) here on Malta and heck is my soul tired, first thing what happens before they can land is that doctors in full hazmat suits board the ship, ideally they are not allowed off ship until they have been checked for disease with tuberculosis being the main worry.
Until the doctors have been and given a clean bill of health, food and water will be thrown onto the ship, direct contact is strictly forbidden.
Then as soon as they are processed and given first help, they get sent into quarantine for two to three weeks, then after quarantine they go to the camps.
The camps are segregated into male and female and family units but also tribal units in an attempt to stop racial violence, then, it can take up to two years before they are sent to the so-called "third countries" almost all choose to go to skandinavia with Sweden being the jackpot, the reason for this is that here the asylum seekers get around 100 Euros to spend and in Sweden up to 700 Euros, however Sweden is known to send criminal refugees back to Malta, these (for most part men) are the ones infesting the area around Marsa.
However a woman was recently sent back with her four children after being in Sweden for a few years and who by now only speak Swedish.
The camps themselves are nice enough with container sized living accommodations, all needs are cared for, but they are also sterile, no toys for the children, nothing to do, the youths sometimes minors want to work and can´t understand that there are laws that prevent children working, that makes boredom one of the main issues.
A lot of the refugees that have found work here on Malta work as cheap labour in the building trade or running after the waste trucks and tossing the waste bags into the compactor, the driver is always Maltese and as a rule likes to "speed up" a sadistic little bit, dish-washers, window cleaners, street sweepers. these are the kind of jobs they get, much to the ire of the many unskilled Maltese who need these jobs for themselves.
In the meantime the streets of Malta are filled with a mix of colorful Sudanese robes and drab Muslim wear, turbans and the everlasting t-shirt, shorts and sandals of black Africans, the richer refugees, aka the ones with jobs can be seen with gold Bling and sunglasses reminiscent of Gangsta rappers. Sadly also with the attitude.
But here is the rub, a call center where I go to get cheap calls to my mother and my kids is run by a guy from Nigeria, nice guy and devout five-times-a-day muslem, I would say typical of the Muslims here, unlike the crazies in Tower Hamlets or the tooth gnashing, in your face Islamic ray-gun Muslims of Blackburn, religion seems not to be too much of an issue most conflict is racial whereas the lighter skinned blacks value themselves higher than the black-as-ace-of-spade blacks.
Böh! I wish I knew what to do, I do know that there is no easy solution, no, there is no solution what so ever, the boats will come and people will die.
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Last edited by slammer; 22.04.2015 at 14:20.
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  #93  
Old 22.04.2015, 14:19
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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who cares , but don`t send them here !!!!!!
But....but....

We share the same planet!

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  #94  
Old 22.04.2015, 14:30
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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But....but....

We share the same planet!

So then what planet are you from?

Do tell.
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  #95  
Old 22.04.2015, 14:32
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

"All of Europe has a responsibility to stop people from drowning. It’s partly due to their actions in Africa that people have had to leave their homes."

" Countries such as Britain, France, Belgium and Germany think they are far away and not responsible, but they all took part in colonising Africa. Nato took part in the war in Libya. They’re all part of the problem."


There is a repeating sentiment about European culpability, even on this thread that is logically misguided, and is an extension of the same victim mentality that has long afflicted the people of these societies. Colonialism is long over, and clearly, any of the victimizations claimed was done amongst themselves, or to themselves altogether. Repeating it only reinforces that victimhood, and provides no restoration.

On a personal level, the victim mentality leads to guilt, shame, depression, anger, etc. But on a historic and political level, it leads to grievances, atrocities and war. These mindsets really need to be redirected towards self-responsibilities for redress. Playing to it only exacerbates the problem, and can lead to less than good.

Being in the position to provide humanitarian assistance is a blessing in itself and a privilege. But if it is a compulsion, where is the good will in it? I think the West has proven itself to be compassionate and capable. But why cast it as the perpetrators of this same evil at the same time? Isn't that like biting the hand that feeds you? Is that really productive? Is the act of helping really better served when carried out under the guise of guilt, rather than a real compassionate desire to help? Is hipocrisy really only in the domain of the West?

By the way, how come there isn't a call for help from countries like Turkey, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc? Even more so from their own countrymen? Why are the refugees not rushing there?
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Old 22.04.2015, 15:29
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Turkey, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc?
Did you deliberately miss, or that 'etc' covers Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia?

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Even more so from their own countrymen?
'They' may be the reason why they are fleeing their countries in the first place.

See, I don't think you can disregard the fact that there was an exploitative European colonial enterprise for the greater part of the last 400 years (What in school curriculum falls under Modern History). It is the recent-most memory of cross-border (even trans-continental) mass exploitation. In any argument/debate/discussion of this nature it will always come as an aspect. IT MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT. It can't be ignored and shouldn't be over-emphasised this way or that.

Migration itself is a historical phenomenon and can't be avoided AT ALL. No matter how many legislations formed, laws enacted and border security controlled and enhanced.

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  #97  
Old 22.04.2015, 16:01
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

I'm not convinced all these refugees are clamouring for safety. In fact, these illegal journeys are highly risky, life-threatening, and not about safety at all. It is really more about opportunism. I believe they can find true safety elsewhere if that is what they truly wanted.


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See, I don't think you can disregard the fact that there was an exploitative European colonial enterprise for the greater part of the last 400 years (What in school curriculum falls under Modern History). It is the recent-most memory of cross-border (even trans-continental) mass exploitation. In any argument/debate/discussion of this nature it will always come as an aspect. IT MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT. It can't be ignored and shouldn't be over-emphasised this way or that.

Migration itself is a historical phenomenon and can't be avoided AT ALL. No matter how many legislations formed, laws enacted and border security controlled and enhanced.
Sure, you can just as well attribute human migratory patterns to climate change, ecology, food supplies, water supplies or even some religious/spiritual aspiration. But these insinuations of Western culpability for today's situation insists the West is responsible for all this, and therefore must accept responsibility for it all. Nonsense.

While I can acknowledge that the West could be responsible to the extent that it has capability of dealing with it, it lets an awful lot of people off the hook and relegates them to a non-thinking sub-human status. There are problems there that are not the fault of the West that they need to address. And not letting them take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions, assigning it to Big Daddy West, well, its back to colonialism then. I don't agree, but leftist liberals would gladly peddle that soap opera.
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Old 22.04.2015, 16:25
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I'm not convinced all these refugees are clamouring for safety. In fact, these illegal journeys are highly risky, life-threatening, and not about safety at all. It is really more about opportunism. I believe they can find true safety elsewhere if that is what they truly wanted.
and what do you think they are after? The pure despair experienced by many in countries less fortunate by ours is sometimes hard to imagine.

Let's say you are able-bodied male, living in a poor region, civil war behind the corner, and your family is starving to death. How do you think you could "add value" by "taking responsibility"? You will most probably go for the last resort option. The fact that someone is going on a boat to find its place elsewhere (and possibly feed family back home) is very likely caused by unimaginably hard situation, and as a last resort.
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Old 22.04.2015, 16:37
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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and what do you think they are after? The pure despair experienced by many in countries less fortunate by ours is sometimes hard to imagine.

Let's say you are able-bodied male, living in a poor region, civil war behind the corner, and your family is starving to death. How do you think you could "add value" by "taking responsibility"? You will most probably go for the last resort option. The fact that someone is going on a boat to find its place elsewhere (and possibly feed family back home) is very likely caused by unimaginably hard situation, and as a last resort.
If it was me, I would not leave any of my family behind. I would stay with them, fend for them, and bring them across with me if I had to.
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Old 22.04.2015, 17:17
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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If it was me, I would not leave any of my family behind. I would stay with them, fend for them, and bring them across with me if I had to.
My grandfather was a displaced person in WW2. He sent his wife and children to safety before looking after himself. There were tens of thousands like him. How times have changed.
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