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  #121  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:23
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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So what do you suggest? Stop social welfare schemes? Even the current resident can also get this nice cushy lifestyle without lifting a finger to work, no? And everybody everywhere is an immigrant, historically speaking (only the time of arrival is different).

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Your assertion is ridiculous. Makes me wonder if you have any sense of proprietorship.

Perhaps the West's liberality in the free movement of people and immigration is misconstrud by many as an inalienable right. It is not. It is a right and privilege granted to some, but not all, which really should be better coupled with a responsibility towards its upkeep and maintenance, and no, taxes are not enough in themselves.

We have a fine social safety net here in Switzerland meant to help those here who fall through. I even believe it should be extended to Swiss citizens who have never set foot in Switzerland, for the likes of the OP on another thread who wants to come to Switzerland. It is not designed to be exploited by just anyone else anywhere in the world who choses to. It wouldn't work otherwise.
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  #122  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:24
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Umm, then you dont know what you are talking about, since last I checked there were a bunch of airports all over the place.
Umm, this thread is about people traveling by sea.

Pretty much no-one dies flying.

Tom
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  #123  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:31
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Again, I hope nobody in Africa actually reads your post. Its full of the usual right wing lies.

Apartment? In reality, at best get a bunk in a crowded asylum seekers hostel, not located in a military barracks if lucky. So, a lie.

Another lie about the four wives, since you know full well that polygamy is illegal in Switzerland. Most people arent old enough to have had children, maybe at most one child or two.

Most dont get legitimate residence status, another lie there. Last year CH granted 26%. If denied, the allowance is between 6 and 10 CHF a day. Wonder what your lifestyle is that you consider this cushy. Pants on fire by now?

So living in a hostel, cannot work, get an allowance of between 180 to 300 CHF a month while waiting deportation, and cannot bring anybody else. Reality.
I've met refugees here in Switzerland who have been given apartments, an allowance and fees for their language courses. I also know of Swiss locals who would never dream of tapping their Gemeinde's koffers even if it meant they have to go without eating. Lies? I'm afraid what I am telling you is truly cultural awareness. The other notion of turning a blind eye to uncomfortable realities is not true cultural awarenes, its actually a form of cultural ignorance, or lying.

Would you rather hear from true Africans who will tell you the truth of what they see? Its not dificult to find.
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  #124  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:36
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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A friend works in the social housing department of Tower Hamlets and the post by phos is pretty accurate. Apartments, houses wives etc .. In UK they just need to say the magic word and the bleeding hearts are stampeding over each other to offer assistance. .
Unfortunately the UK does allow polygamy to grant welfare benefits, but not to bring multiple wives into the country.

And in the UK also cannot work, the allowance starts from 5 GBP a day, the accomodation allocated is "hard to let". In other words, other people dont want to live there.
So not as stringent as CH, but not seeing "cushy" in this picture.
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  #125  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:42
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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So living in a hostel, cannot work, get an allowance of between 180 to 300 CHF a month while waiting deportation, and cannot bring anybody else. Reality.
Deportation is actually extremely difficult. There are hordes of lawyers milking the system and getting rich by submitting appeals over hopeless cases. And when finally processed, they often stay anyway due to supposed humanitarian reasons or because of lack of cooperation from the receiving country.
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  #126  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:49
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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So what do you suggest? Stop social welfare schemes?
No, but e.g. restrict social welfare to citizens and long-time residents (e.g. 5 years minimum).
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  #127  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:50
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I've met refugees here in Switzerland who have been given apartments, an allowance and fees for their language courses. I also know of Swiss locals who would never dream of tapping their Gemeinde's koffers even if it meant they have to go without eating. Lies? I'm afraid what I am telling you is truly cultural awareness. The other notion of turning a blind eye to uncomfortable realities is not true cultural awarenes, its actually a form of cultural ignorance, or lying.

Would you rather hear from true Africans who will tell you the truth of what they see? Its not dificult to find.
Yes, refugees whose applications have been accepted and are considered genuine cases are given the support they need to integrate into Swiss society, which is more than any down on their luck Swiss would require.

The alternative is people legally allowed in, and then not given support, leading to problems further down the road. Then of course EF will be along to condemn ghettoization and parallel societies.

From earlier in this thread

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I don't mind helping those who are truly in desperate need.
Did you really mean this?
Or do you deep down see them all as economic opportunists, which incidentally would apply to a large chunk of EFers, myself included.

And yes I have heard the perceptions of Somali refugees, and would be willing to hear more.
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  #128  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:50
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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We have a fine social safety net here in Switzerland meant to help those here who fall through. I even believe it should be extended to Swiss citizens who have never set foot in Switzerland, for the likes of the OP on another thread who wants to come to Switzerland. It is not designed to be exploited by just anyone else anywhere in the world who choses to. It wouldn't work otherwise.
This is true.

I have a friend who is a medical doctor and she says she gets numerous patients who have such pain and disability that they should really be declared invalid, be awarded an invalid pension and excused from having to work. Many of these are too proud to admit their invalidity and continue doing their job despite all the suffering and difficulty.

She also sees many people who have managed to get themselves invalid pensions over relatively minor and ailments. Many of the latter are recent immigrants who have contributed little if anything to the pension pot off which they are living, and which is actually being filled by those who do have a genuine claim. It's just a question of knowing what to tell a gullible doctor and not having any shame. Many tell some stories of traumatic events in their home country which she as a doctor says are highly unlikely to be true and don't even always match the symptoms, but then you can't prove anything and nobody wants to be accused of racism so lots of blind eyes are being turned. She says many of them treat her disrespectfully because she is a woman, not believing she is a "real" doctor and she has even been threatened when she once started asking questions over something she thought was suspicious. One also stole her iPhone and although the police recovered it, they refused to press any charges. She says she was also groped in an inappropriate way and one tried to follow her on her way home.

Of course this is not all of them and one shouldn't generalize. But its a worrying phenomenon and one that, if left to develop, can get out of hand and bankrupt the system.
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  #129  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:57
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Deportation is actually extremely difficult. There are hordes of lawyers milking the system and getting rich by submitting appeals over hopeless cases. And when finally processed, they often stay anyway due to supposed humanitarian reasons or because of lack of cooperation from the receiving country.
I agree that continuing to stay because the receiving country does not cooperate is a difficult problem. Perhaps make aid to these countries conditional to accepting deportees, and look for other sanctions to impose.

But I dont see the state making their stay here "cushy" by any stretch of the imagination.
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  #130  
Old 22.04.2015, 21:59
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Let's look at the problem with a different perspective. Among those who try to cross the Mediterranean sea there are 2 categories of people:

1) political/war refugees: afghani, syrian, libyan; iraki, eritrean, somali, malian. These are "temporary" flows due to wars in those regions (wars initiated sometimes by european/western countries in the name of a fight against dictators or weapons of of mass destructions). What is interesting to note is the number of refugees in neighbouring countries...it's counted in millions. Example. 1million libyan refugees in Tunisia, about 1 million syrians in Jordan & Turkey. Several hundred thousands somali and eritrean in Kenya. The number of several thousands in Europe looks ridiculous. Europe as a rich continent can do much more to help war refugees.

2) economical refugees: senegal, nigeria, morocco, tunisia, algeria, ....
very often they pay very large amounts to get to Europe. A lot of them do have some qualifications (plumber, electricians, bricklayer, etc...). You can find them at some point working in the construction or agricultural sectors of the economy in Europe. This shows that there is a "certain" need for this cheap & low qualified labour force. Again here the hypocrisy is that illegal workers are punished but not the enterprises/companies who employ them to make fat margins!
The solution would be for some european countries to recognize that need and provide immigration visas based on those qualifications & financial investments required (fee). That could diminish the attractiveness for those involved in human trafficking or smuggling.

Let's come to the real problem....all this makes sense on paper and in theory. But practically there is a strong opposition from european population to see this immigrants come here legally for work. No government would have the courage to claim this truth or need....they would be immediately punished at the next elections. In summary, Europe has some tensions between what it actually needs and what it can accept.
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  #131  
Old 22.04.2015, 22:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Unfortunately the UK does allow polygamy to grant welfare benefits, but not to bring multiple wives into the country.

And in the UK also cannot work, the allowance starts from 5 GBP a day, the accomodation allocated is "hard to let". In other words, other people dont want to live there.
So not as stringent as CH, but not seeing "cushy" in this picture.
5gbp... yeah keep dreaming. I know of a family in a 5 bedroom house in a very nice area with a monthly rent of 4000gbp.. all paid by the council in addition to various other benefits.

I seem to remember asking you previous questions on asylum and you were quite evasive.
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  #132  
Old 22.04.2015, 22:39
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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try to resolve the roots of the problems?
The world has never been set up to solve the root of any problem.
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  #133  
Old 22.04.2015, 22:45
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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5gbp... yeah keep dreaming. I know of a family in a 5 bedroom house in a very nice area with a monthly rent of 4000gbp.. all paid by the council in addition to various other benefits.

I seem to remember asking you previous questions on asylum and you were quite evasive.
You know about asylum seekers living in a 4000 GBP rental? Prove it.

Will try to answer whatever questions you claim to seem to have asked. What were they?
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  #134  
Old 22.04.2015, 22:52
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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5gbp... yeah keep dreaming. I know of a family in a 5 bedroom house in a very nice area with a monthly rent of 4000gbp.. all paid by the council in addition to various other benefits.
So I've been an asylum seeker, refugee claimant, permanent resident and finally Citizen in Canada. I can't imagine the UK providing plush homes to the needy any more than I can image Canada doing it. Please prove your allegations with solid facts instead of random scare-mongering stories.

In my experience, the people getting all these benefits in Canada were white, had more kids than they could afford and uneducated. Often with nothing more than a high school diploma.

And looking at the UK... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3526309.stm ... Well, I don't think the immigrants are the problem. Maybe the English are.
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  #135  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:06
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Your assertion is ridiculous. Makes me wonder if you have any sense of proprietorship.
Which assertion? Weren't you claiming something about usage of a literary device? I hope you are aware of 'irony'. It is your assertion that the people immigrating to Europe are lazy (they won't lift a finger to work if they can), are after amazingly gorgeous Nordic blonde women, and contribute nothing to society in general other than mayhem and live on social security.

Further irony is that you come from America, the land of immigrants and we can only guess what it would have been without them (many of them might have been illegals when they first arrived). For recent examples one needn't look beyond the Swiss National Football Team. Anachronistically speaking if you were around in early 90s I wonder how you would have felt about the fact that the Slavs, Albanians and the Bosnians who couldn't keep peace in their own country are coming in masses to the West?

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Perhaps the West's liberality in the free movement of people and immigration is misconstrud by many as an inalienable right. It is not.
Off course it is not.

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  #136  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:13
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You know about asylum seekers living in a 4000 GBP rental? Prove it.

Will try to answer whatever questions you claim to seem to have asked. What were they?
Yeah sure I will.just walk.into the council office and ask to have copies of data restricted personal files... I know the person in the council for many years. . They have no reason to.lie. This particular family are in a 5 bedroom private house as the council doesn't have a sufficiently large accommodation to house them.

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So I've been an asylum seeker, refugee claimant, permanent resident and finally Citizen in Canada. I can't imagine the UK providing plush homes to the needy any more than I can image Canada doing it. Please prove your allegations with solid facts instead of random scare-mongering stories.

In my experience, the people getting all these benefits in Canada were white, had more kids than they could afford and uneducated. Often with nothing more than a high school diploma.

And looking at the UK... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3526309.stm ... Well, I don't think the immigrants are the problem. Maybe the English are.
There are news stories in the Uk Press of similar events in addition to my comment above.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.04.2015 at 23:36. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #137  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:18
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Yeah sure I will.just walk.into the council office and ask to have copies of data restricted personal files... I know the person in the council for many years. . They have no reason to.lie. This particular family are in a 5 bedroom private house as the council doesn't have a sufficiently large accommodation to house them.
In other words, hearsay. Nice try though.

They could be an asylum seeker family, or they could be the collective descendants of the Crawleys, having been kicked out of Downton Abbey after a particularly injudicious bet on a horse race back in 1937.
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  #138  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Yeah just keep telling yourself that.. I could also turn it round and say prove it is not true... you can't either
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  #139  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:24
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

Oh the irony, a bunch of Expats who came here for a better Quality of Life wagging their judgemental finger at those trying to do the same.
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  #140  
Old 22.04.2015, 23:49
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Oh the irony, a bunch of Expats who came here for a better Quality of Life wagging their judgemental finger at those trying to do the same.
But we're the right sort of auslanders - not like those dirty filthy types
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