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  #161  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:12
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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So quality of life = money for you.......basically it's reduced to the number of things you can buy. Not sure everyone agrees with this definition.
Shouldn't everybody be able to define for themselves what constitutes their quality of life?
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  #162  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:20
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Shouldn't everybody be able to define for themselves what constitutes their quality of life?
I think there is a confusion between "standard of living" (which can be measured using income as information), and "quality of life" which is much broader and includes things like healthcare, crime rate, politics, environment, employment etc.... There are various indexes generated by different organizations to measure "quality of life" and none uses "income" only. If we do not have the same definition we can spend hours, days, months, years, centuries discussing it.
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Old 23.04.2015, 11:28
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Actually, when I came here, the pay was less than I could get back in the US, so it was hardly for a better quality of life.

Different, yes, better, no.

Tom
Tom, you have all my sympathy but I really have to say it: this one single post of yours practically refutes all your posting history on EF!
I mean..what? What about Ticino, Ticino, Ticino....(I'm singing now)
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  #164  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:35
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I think there is a confusion between "standard of living" (which can be measured using income as information), and "quality of life" which is much broader and includes things like healthcare, crime rate, politics, environment, employment etc.... There are various indexes generated by different organizations to measure "quality of life" and none uses "income" only. If we do not have the same definition we can spend hours, days, months, years, centuries discussing it.

Well, in theory with enough income, one can buy good healthcare, security, opinions in politics etc.
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Old 23.04.2015, 11:36
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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This discussion is futile. Everyone in their situation would have tried to escape it.
Unfortunately, there are (how can I call them? monsters?) individuals who take advantage of their desperation, or strong desire to better their lives. I am sure they in fact have little idea about how dangerous this sea crossing can be..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10193569.html
the question has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not people are justified in trying to escape from shitty places, but rather whether or not people who do not live in those shitty places have any moral or other obligation to help them - for free.
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  #166  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:43
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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What does that even mean? That they'll be well brought up, go to school and get a job? All this doesn't happen on it's own you know.
It means that immigrating to another country is harder than coasting the system and letting the pieces fall where they may.
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  #167  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:44
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

There sure is a lot of "putting words in other people's mouths" on this thread. That is not really a conversation, you know.

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Why should anyone believe they are different than you or us? Is it because some of us have little trust in humankind in general, or we're directing our lack of trust and contempt (yes, it's contempt after all) only towards the less fortunate ones, or the poorer ones?
You'll have to speak for yourself there. I don't have any contempt for immigrants, particularly those who are striving to better their lives. What I do have contempt for is the twisted narrative and logic of victimhood and guilt. That idea that Europe and Europeans must lay down its values because of historical colonization. Yet I don't know of anyone in Europe who engaged in such colonization, certainly not here in Switzerland. And it goes on to state it MUST take in all who want to come here, yet these same people are not willing to open their own homes to house such a refugee. It's hipocritical.

Furthermore, a lot of such sentiments express dereliction of any responsibility for the community, society, culture or country they are living in. It shows no sense of respect for their own place of living, nor the culture that has built it. But for some us, this place is our own. We want to maintain its upkeep, and we want it respectable. Perhaps because such "expats" and "foreigners" know it is not their own, and so will throw around irresponsible sentiments in disregard of it? For me this is like a dog who poops where he sleeps. It is abnormal and not natural. Instinctively, I would not trust it.
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  #168  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:49
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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There sure is a lot of "putting words in other people's mouths" on this thread. That is not really a conversation, you know.

You'll have to speak for yourself there. I don't have any contempt for immigrants, particularly those who are striving to better their lives. What I do have contempt for is the twisted narrative and logic of victimhood and guilt. That idea that Europe and Europeans must lay down its values because of historical colonization. Yet I don't know of anyone in Europe who engaged in such colonization, certainly not here in Switzerland. And it goes on to state it MUST take in all who want to come here, yet these same people are not willing to open their own homes to house such a refugee. It's hipocritical.

Furthermore, a lot of such sentiments express dereliction of any responsibility for the community, society, culture or country they are living in. It shows no sense of respect for their own place of living, nor the culture that has built it. But for some us, this place is our own. We want to maintain its upkeep, and we want it respectable. Perhaps because such "expats" and "foreigners" know it is not their own, and so will throw around irresponsible sentiments in disregard of it? For me this is like a dog who poops where he sleeps. It is abnormal and not natural. Instinctively, I would not trust it.
And here I was thinking the locals hated the "foreigners" because we're more qualified, educated and harder working.
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  #169  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:50
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

It is very unfortunate that people in 2015 try to escape from where they live in order to survive! It is however, even more unfortunate to see people blaming them for escaping in order to survive.

The "developed" world, is discussing how to cope with the problem of immigrants coming to Europe, although we should be discussing how to house and take care of them, and integrate them to our scociety (and I am not talking about those kindergarten talks like having them live in my home etc.)

We spend billions in weapons, markets, banks and other "investments" and dont give a dime (or quid/penny, or Euro/cent) about trying to help people that are in need.

I am not talking about bringing them all over and giving them homes and such, however is it not possible to talk about them and blame them for what they are...
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  #170  
Old 23.04.2015, 11:52
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

For reference: An "asylum seeking" family will be given (IE full rent paid by the Gemeinde*) place to live. The size of the place has to be in accordance with guidelines set out for anyone renting a property - IE number of rooms. This place will be furnished** and they will be provided with sufficient funds/support to ensure they don't need to "supplement" their income.

The services provided to people by the Swiss state is, IMHO, very high


*The Gemeinde receives funding from the Kanton, which itself receives funding from the State.
**This includes everything you'd expect: sofa, bed, kitchen-wear, dining-wear etc etc etc

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I am not talking about bringing them all over and giving them homes and such, however is it not possible to talk about them and blame them for what they are...
Absolutely, because as we all learned in history, the first great civilisations of the world were all based in Northern Europe and America.
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  #171  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:01
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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the question has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not people are justified in trying to escape from shitty places, but rather whether or not people who do not live in those shitty places have any moral or other obligation to help them - for free.
Yes if the country signed the Geneva Convention relating to the status of Refugees.

Actually the question is whether those who are trying to escape from those "shitty places" (as you wrote) are refugees or migrants. The statement of the head of UN Refugee Agency is clear: more than 50% are refugees (escaping war zones). I am not sure that people who are risking their lives are doing it just for the sole pleasure to disturb your "quality of life".

There is a big question today about responsibility of countries like Switzerland and others who excluded the possibility to apply for refugee status in local embassies. With this decision the countries "force" refugees to take those risks by crossing the sea.

To finish, I'd like to add that some statements made about this tragedy are despicable. I will take the example of Katie Hopkins who wrote that those "refugees" are like cockroaches and labelled them as "feral" and should be stopped with gunships!
I know that the average expat in EF is much more intelligent and human than Katie Hopkins, but I must admit that some nauseous posts in this thread cast some doubts about my statement.
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  #172  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:04
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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And here I was thinking the locals hated the "foreigners" because we're more qualified, educated and harder working.
Nutrient rich poop is poop nevertheless, and may even smell worse.
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  #173  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:07
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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For reference: An "asylum seeking" family will be given (IE full rent paid by the Gemeinde*) place to live. The size of the place has to be in accordance with guidelines set out for anyone renting a property - IE number of rooms. This place will be furnished** and they will be provided with sufficient funds/support to ensure they don't need to "supplement" their income.

The services provided to people by the Swiss state is, IMHO, very high


*The Gemeinde receives funding from the Kanton, which itself receives funding from the State.
**This includes everything you'd expect: sofa, bed, kitchen-wear, dining-wear etc etc etc

Absolutely, because as we all learned in history, the first great civilisations of the world were also based in Northern Europe and America.
Have you actually talked to a successful asylum seeker? Like met for coffee with documents and listened? One step further, have you met someone that works as a therapist for asylum seekers, or even a translator for therapists of asylum seekers? The burnout rate for even translators is quite high. In Switzerland at least, there's only one therapy centre that deals with asylum seekers and refugee victims of torture.

As for housing, there's one along my weekly run. While the place is satisfactory in terms of hygiene and safety, it is completely depressing and makes the prisoners feel like prisoners (and hardly at even a comfortable standard since inmates have a curfew, and living in communal settings).
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  #174  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:09
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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There sure is a lot of "putting words in other people's mouths" on this thread. That is not really a conversation, you know.



You'll have to speak for yourself there. I don't have any contempt for immigrants, particularly those who are striving to better their lives. What I do have contempt for is the twisted narrative and logic of victimhood and guilt. That idea that Europe and Europeans must lay down its values because of historical colonization. Yet I don't know of anyone in Europe who engaged in such colonization, certainly not here in Switzerland. And it goes on to state it MUST take in all who want to come here, yet these same people are not willing to open their own homes to house such a refugee. It's hipocritical.

Furthermore, a lot of such sentiments express dereliction of any responsibility for the community, society, culture or country they are living in. It shows no sense of respect for their own place of living, nor the culture that has built it. But for some us, this place is our own. We want to maintain its upkeep, and we want it respectable. Perhaps because such "expats" and "foreigners" know it is not their own, and so will throw around irresponsible sentiments in disregard of it? For me this is like a dog who poops where he sleeps. It is abnormal and not natural. Instinctively, I would not trust it.
Oh, but you're accusing others of tactics you're using yourself (more often than not).

And....how on earth an appeal to empathy (and a rational approach to a humanitarian crisis after all) towards fellow human beings equates to disregard of Switzerland?
You're right on one thing: this is not a conversion.

Have fun.

P.S. Thinking more of it. Phos. You don't have to join any far right wing party in order to prove you're an worthwhile naturalised Swiss citizen. I love Switzerland for the humanitarian work they've done in so many situations. But, each to their own.
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  #175  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:09
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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Have you actually talked to a successful asylum seeker? Like met for coffee with documents and listened? One step further, have you met someone that works as a therapist for asylum seekers, or even a translator for therapists of asylum seekers? The burnout rate for even translators is quite high. In Switzerland at least, there's only one therapy centre that deals with asylum seekers and refugee victims of torture.

As for housing, there's one along my weekly run. While the place is satisfactory in terms of hygiene and safety, it is completely depressing and makes the prisoners feel like prisoners (and hardly at even a comfortable standard since inmates have a curfew, and living in communal settings).
I own a property that is rented to a Gemeinde - I'll give you 1 guess who the actually tenants are.
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Old 23.04.2015, 12:19
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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I own a property that is rented to a Gemeinde - I'll give you 1 guess who the actually tenants are.
I'm willing to bet the property is pretty awful then...
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  #177  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:21
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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P.S. Thinking more of it. Phos. You don't have to join any far right wing party in order to prove you're an worthwhile naturalised Swiss citizen. I love Switzerland for the humanitarian work they've done in so many situations. But, each to their own.
And that's the left in a nutshell. Only took 9 pages, but argue with them long enough and they'll accuse you of being a Nazi.
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Old 23.04.2015, 12:29
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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P.S. Thinking more of it. Phos. You don't have to join any far right wing party in order to prove you're an worthwhile naturalised Swiss citizen. I love Switzerland for the humanitarian work they've done in so many situations. But, each to their own.
Funny dig. I would just add that being a responsible and lucid human being does not necessarily mean you've joined a far-right party. I also hope that doesn't imply a lobotomy is a prerequisite to join the far-left.
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  #179  
Old 23.04.2015, 12:29
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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And that's the left in a nutshell. Only took 9 pages, but argue with them long enough and they'll accuse you of being a Nazi.
far right party does not equate nazi. You are taking shortcuts and simplistic does not mean simple. SVP or Front national are far right but no one said they are nazi.
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Old 23.04.2015, 12:30
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Re: The repeating tragedy of immigrants dying to reach Europe.

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And that's the left in a nutshell.
O.K. If you say so.
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