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  #21  
Old 25.04.2015, 10:17
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Re: 100 Years Ago

But Wolli, nobody talks about the British genocide of the Tamils or the Indonesian genocide by famine of east Timor or the British atrocities to the Mau Mau, that list is endless.
What bugs me from time to time is that we posthumously condemn peodo's like Jimmy Saville but honor mass murderers like Sir George Watkin Eben James Erskine GCB, KBE, DSO.
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Old 25.04.2015, 10:18
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Re: 100 Years Ago

It was not a singular event. There were 3 or 4 massacres of Armenians over a span of approximately 30 years. Additionally, there was also the genocide of Assyrian and Greek. If you look for a common factor and motive, you easily find ....

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I was at a business dinner a year or two ago in Istanbul, which included several Turkish officials. another American at the table (a dumber American than me) asked one of the officials, "how many Christians are there living in Turkey, on a percentage basis?"

"none."


Anyone care to admit any resemblance between this and ISIS? Its the same thing.
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  #23  
Old 25.04.2015, 10:57
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Joachim Gauch on the news as a screw you Erdoğan
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gau...enien-101.html


just sent an Email to Mr Gauck ...... here it is




Sehr geehrter Herr Gauck



Hier vier Punkte zu Ihrer Kenntnisnahme



A) die Türkische Republik ist NICHT ein Nachfolgestaat des Osmanischen Reichs sondern existierte ja sogar eine Zeit lang NEBEN dem Rest des alten Reichs

B) das Grauen der Armenier zu würdigen ist zwar in Ordnung, aber NICHT ohne das Schicksal der Tscherkessen zu würdigen, welche zuerst auf die Krim vertrieben wurden, und dann durch die Briten in einer Gigant-Operation nach dem neuen Trans-Jordanien evakuiert wurden

C) in der gleichen Zeit als der Massenmord an den Armeniern lief führten die Schergen des sterbenden Grossreichs Massen-Exekutionen in Damaskus und Beirut (Place des Martyrs) und in anderen Städten des Reiches durch

D) ja. auch im Mashreek führten Generale des Deutschen Reichs Regie -- also sollte Deutschland an die heutigen Länder Armenien, Libanon, Syrien (später) und Jordanien je etwa 10 Milliarden Euro Kompensation zahlen



Mit freundlichen Grüssen


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  #24  
Old 25.04.2015, 11:01
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Re: 100 Years Ago

And their i was, think it must be something to do with Wollis' 50th birthday anniversary, silly me
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Old 25.04.2015, 11:05
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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The mass murder was the over-reaction (on about three assassinations) of a dying empire, which for centuries was relatively liberal and tolerant.
wolli, this is nothing more than the Turkish party line, and it is untrue. Christian minorities had been subjected to persecution under Ottoman rule for centuries, and the focus of the program begun in WW1 was the extermination of Christianity within Turkey - a program, btw, that has been almost 100% successful. the Armenian community bore the overwhelming brunt of the tragedy, but the objective of the program was much broader.

the continuing efforts to frame the extermination program as a "political overreaction" do a tremendous disservice to the millions of individuals impacted by the tragedy.
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Old 25.04.2015, 11:06
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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that 1.5 million figure does not include Greeks, Assyrians and others who were also murdered as part of the same program of extermination.

Neither Greeks nor Chaldeans (Assyrians) were exterminated by the Turkish Empire. And the Greeks should rather be silent. What nationality were the Administrators of the Turkish Empire ? Yes you get it, Greeks !


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wolli, this is nothing more than the Turkish party line, and it is untrue. Christian minorities had been subjected to persecution under Ottoman rule for centuries, and the focus of the program begun in WW1 was the extermination of Christianity within Turkey - a program, btw, that has been almost 100% successful. the Armenian community bore the overwhelming brunt of the tragedy, but the objective of the program was much broader.

the continuing efforts to frame the extermination program as a "political overreaction" do a tremendous disservice to the millions of individuals impacted by the tragedy.

the Turks say that Armenian activists in late 1914, early 1915 tried to assassinate Enver Pasha which ignited the matter. Which started as a Kind of Police Action

Last edited by Wollishofener; 25.04.2015 at 11:35.
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  #27  
Old 25.04.2015, 11:13
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Re: 100 Years Ago

Ahem, ahem,

Assyrian genocide
Greek genocide


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And the Greeks should rather be silent. What nationality were the Administrators of the Turkish Empire ? Yes you get it, Greeks !
I think that was exactly the point they were trying to make with the genocide: "Those damn Dhimmis better be silent and just quietly pay their Jizya"
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  #28  
Old 25.04.2015, 11:16
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Neither Greeks nor Chaldeans (Assyrians) were exterminated by the Turkish Empire. And the Greeks should rather be silent. What nationality were the Administrators of the Turkish Empire ? Yes you get it, Greeks !
wolli - please stop it. the facts are irrefutable, well-studied and long-established, even if the precise number of casualties is difficult to calculate. in other words, the debate has been closed for several decades.
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  #29  
Old 25.04.2015, 11:46
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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wolli - please stop it. the facts are irrefutable, well-studied and long-established, even if the precise number of casualties is difficult to calculate. in other words, the debate has been closed for several decades.



Irrefutible is the fact that Turks did various massacres. And also that previous leaders of the Turkish Republic to some extent accepted the historical facts. That Mr Erdogan turns the clocks back, not tries but DOES do so,


The debate was re-opened by both the government of Turkey AND the government of ARMENIA.








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I think that was exactly the point they were trying to make with the genocide: "Those damn Dhimmis better be silent and just quietly pay their Jizya"[/QUOTE]



No it was NOT. No Turk admits that Greeks did the Administration and Albanians / Kosovaris the Military leadership. They deny these facts admantly. So that I am not astonished that official Turkey denies the anti-Armenian Holocaust. Turkey already in the 1960ies, with some Money Transfers, made it that Lebanon re-named the Place des Martyrs into the Place des Canons
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  #30  
Old 25.04.2015, 12:14
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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No it was NOT. No Turk admits that Greeks did the Administration and Albanians / Kosovaris the Military leadership. They deny these facts admantly. So that I am not astonished that official Turkey denies the anti-Armenian Holocaust. Turkey already in the 1960ies, with some Money Transfers, made it that Lebanon re-named the Place des Martyrs into the Place des Canons
Oh, so it was just a coincidence that Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were predominately Christian, and the tactics and rhetoric of groups like ISIS is in line with their actions.

By the way, do you take any prescription pills?
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  #31  
Old 25.04.2015, 12:16
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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the Turks say that Armenian activists in late 1914, early 1915 tried to assassinate Enver Pasha which ignited the matter. Which started as a Kind of Police Action
This is incorrect. Police action resulting in 1.5m people being butchered?
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  #32  
Old 25.04.2015, 12:18
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Re: 100 Years Ago

Just heard the backlash of Gauck's comment on the news, seems light the Turkish government is throwing a hissy fit with a: "this will never be forgotten" pout.
The problem that I see is that it will give the more radical elements in the Turkish government some ammo.
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  #33  
Old 25.04.2015, 12:50
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Yes, they did.

Armenians had a say to the Kurds: they got us for breakfast, they will have you for lunch.

And they did.
Lesson worth learning...
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  #34  
Old 25.04.2015, 13:05
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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This is incorrect. Police action resulting in 1.5m people being butchered?
Wolli is out on a limb all by himself on this one.

"The 10 commandments of the COMITÉ UNION AND PROGRES.

(1). Profiting by Arts: 3 and 4 of Comité Union and Progres, close all Armenian Societies, and arrest all who worked against Government at any time among them and send them into the provinces such as Bagdad or Mosul, and wipe them out either on the road or there.

(2). Collect arms.

(3). Excite Moslem opinion by suitable and special means, in places as Van, Erzeroum, Adana, where as a point of fact the Armenians have already won the hatred of the Moslems, provoke organised massacres as the Russians did at Baku.

(4). Leave all executive to the people in the provinces such as Erzeroum, Van, Mumuret ul Aziz, and Bitlis, and use Military disciplinary forces (i.e. Gendarmerie) ostensibly to stop massacres, while on the contrary in places as Adana, Sivas, Broussa, Ismidt and Smyrna actively help the Moslems with military force.

(5). Apply measures to exterminate all males under 50, priests and teachers, leave girls and children to be Islamized.

(6). Carry away the families of all who succeed in escaping and apply measures to cut them off from all connection with their native place.

(7). On the ground that Armenian officials may be spies, expel and drive them out absolutely from every Government department or post.

(8). Kill off in an appropriate manner all Armenians in the Army - this to be left to the military to do.

(9) All action to begin everywhere simultaneously, and thus leave no time for preparation of defensive measures.

(10). Pay attention to the strictly confidential nature of these instructions, which may not go beyond two or three persons.

n.b. Above is verbatim translation - date December 1914 or January 1915
."
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  #35  
Old 25.04.2015, 14:33
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Re: 100 Years Ago

Thanks for posting this. As Phos also says, this is pretty well IS's approach
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  #36  
Old 25.04.2015, 14:35
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Re: 100 Years Ago

An interesting article in 24heures about the 170 orphans who were relocated to CH (canton Vaud). The photos of the time are quite interesting (you can scroll through the photos on the page).

Link. http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions/...story/27090428

A quick and dirty Google translation:

TITLE: Begnins refuge village of 170 Armenian orphans. Commemoration The home of Pastor Anthony Krafft-Bonnard collected dozens of child survivors of the Armenian genocide of 1915.

ARTICLE: Their names? lost. Their age? forgotten. Their homeland? uninhabitable. They have only two things: their lives and as Armenian "So the pastor Antony Krafft-Bonnard described the young orphans he welcomed, until 1936, the Armenian Foyer Begnins.. To mark the start of the Armenian genocide commemorations, return on ambitious charity conducted with 170 children. "I can still see the boys coming out of the buildings with their aprons" recalls Yvette Schacher, an ancient village.

The arrival of these children previously placed Swiss orphanage Sivas (eastern Anatolia), had to organize the emergency. Warned by an Ottoman official of an impending raid, officials of the Swiss Home opted for the exodus. "In 1922, my father was an engineering student in Geneva and his father sent him to Marseille to welcome the first child refugees, undocumented, says Peter Krafft, grand-son of the founder of the home. So they made a list with the names and ages. "With this" passport "improvised that young orphans reached Begnins.

"The goal was to train children in the Armenian language and culture to be the future elite of the country"
There, life was organized around three buildings: the house, the farm and the school, which dispensed intellectual instruction and custom morale. "The goal was to train children in the Armenian language and culture to be the future elite of the country," says Peter Krafft. Obviously, the courses were adapted to the Swiss curriculum to allow a connection to the school. Learning continued with chores and farm work. Gardening, cleaning or mending aimed to teach students the beginnings of the organization of a community.

"Papa Krafft"
In this microcosm, a strong bond uniting the pastor and his pupils, who even created a song in honor of their "Papa Krafft 'and sang when they saw him. He will long be the patriarch. "My mother came to 9 years old and my father was a decade when he landed with his violin, Meline tells Vincent Zinguinian, Arzier. When they are united, the Krafft-Bonnard pastor who celebrated their union. »

Since the resurrection of Armenia was not taking place, many students of Begnins remained in Switzerland, where they invested to help raise the profile of their millennia culture. "Most have mobilized to form associations in Switzerland," says Harutyunyan Sevane, refugee granddaughter and doctoral student in armenology in Geneva.

As for the Foyer Begnins, he not only inspired the Pestalozzi Children's Village but also provided valuable family base. "We met all during the holiday season, remembers Sandro Nyonnais Harutyunyan, second generation. As there was no grandparents, this was a great family. "Today, the descendants are found annually in Begnins. (24 hours)
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  #37  
Old 25.04.2015, 14:42
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100 Years Ago

Next to the article there is a testimony collected at that time of one of the orphans. Unfortunately same as German and Russian genocide on other European nations more recently, so it is beyond my capacity to translate it as it reminds me too much of the stories I've heard.
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  #38  
Old 25.04.2015, 16:00
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Oh, so it was just a coincidence that Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were predominately Christian, and the tactics and rhetoric of groups like ISIS is in line with their actions.

By the way, do you take any prescription pills?

Many in the top Echelons of the Turkish Empire, including elite soldiers, were Christians. Was this just a coinidence ? YES, it was . Many who opposed the Turkish Empire were Sunni Muslim Arabs. Coincidence ? No they opposed the rule of the Sultan-Kaliph in Stanbul
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Old 25.04.2015, 16:06
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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This is incorrect. Police action resulting in 1.5m people being butchered?

No, it IS correct. As it originally was planned as a "punishment" by Police, but supported by the army. Most Turks Claim that things just went out of control. And IN THIS I do NOT believe the Turkish side, as this development clearly came from the top. Since the 1950ies, official Turkey Claims that such Folks as "Kurds" do not really exist, but that there just is a Problem with mountain bandits . That Greeks in both Greece and Cyprus tell comparable rubbish does not improve matters at all
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Old 25.04.2015, 16:12
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Just heard the backlash of Gauck's comment on the news, seems light the Turkish government is throwing a hissy fit with a: "this will never be forgotten" pout.
The problem that I see is that it will give the more radical elements in the Turkish government some ammo.

that Mr Gauck lies when ignoring the mass killings done by the Turkish Empire up from 1910 until 1918 in the Mashreek will result in compensation claims against Germany from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq, not least as many victims were Christians. The defacto-commanders on the Southeastern Turkish fronts were Generalfeldmarschall Von der Goltz and General Liman von Sanders, assisted by General Mustafa Kemal Pasha




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Thanks for posting this. As Phos also says, this is pretty well IS's approach

But IS is not a government but a criminal rebel group, while the Turkish Empire was fully recognized and in full conjunction with Germany and Austria-Hungary. And Turkey is a secularist country




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