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  #41  
Old 25.04.2015, 16:34
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Ahem, ahem,

Assyrian genocide
Greek genocide




I think that was exactly the point they were trying to make with the genocide: "Those damn Dhimmis better be silent and just quietly pay their Jizya"
Thanks, also worth looking at this long list of massacres in Turkey from 532 to 2011.
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Old 25.04.2015, 17:06
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Many in the top Echelons of the Turkish Empire, including elite soldiers, were Christians. Was this just a coinidence ? YES, it was . Many who opposed the Turkish Empire were Sunni Muslim Arabs. Coincidence ? No they opposed the rule of the Sultan-Kaliph in Stanbul
You mean the Janissaries? And how they eventually turn against sub-groups within their sub-groups? What about them?


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Thanks, also worth looking at this long list of massacres in Turkey from 532 to 2011.
I know. The whole region has been cluster-*ed for over a millennium. So when Angelina Jolie is somehow granted airtime address the UN to indict the world's lethargy in protecting the children of Syria, it made me wonder how to go about fixing a problem whose existence is denied? As in any addiction, the road to recover begins with admission.
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Old 25.04.2015, 21:10
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Thanks, also worth looking at this long list of massacres in Turkey from 532 to 2011.

But the Turkish Empire only lasted from 1270 until 1924, and the Turkish Republic only started in 1922, There was no Turkey before 1270


An interesting and amazing detail of history is that Mustafa Kemal started the Republic when the Empire was still in Business. More than a year later, the Sultan-Kaliph gave up and left, so that the Republic could get Istanbul. Out of principle, the Capital was NOT moved to Stanbul but remained in Ankara. And when King Idris es-Senussi of Libya asked Mustafa Kemal, the Gazi refused as he had made the Republic into a Secularist Country




President Erdogan abstains from changing this, not so much in respect of the Kemalist constitution but as he remembers what happened to Adnan Menderes in 1960, when General Gürsel took power. Strange is that the Party of Mr Menderes now is in government

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  #44  
Old 25.04.2015, 21:20
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Buit the Turkish Empire only lasted from 1270 until 1924, and the Turkish Republic only started in 1922, There was no Turkey before 1270
How's this for a fixer: Let's not call it Turkey anymore. Problem solved?
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Old 25.04.2015, 22:33
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Re: 100 Years Ago

I have an interest in this subject as I am a Brit of Armenian extraction. This Facebook post by a friend in Istanbul imo is worth posting here because it moved me:


"Yesterday was an indescribable day. My biggest fear going into the commemoration of the Armenian Genocide in Istanbul was that Erdogan, with elections approaching and a need to appeal to the MHP/nationalist voters, would see our presence on Istiklal Cd as a threat and that the police would then melt away, allowing the nationalist protestors to break through their lines and attack us.
As we sat facing towards Taxim Square, we could hear the shouts from the nationalists at our... backs every time the speakers would cut out. Chillingly it seemed to get louder and louder, as if they were edging nearer and nearer. Then - as the sounds of Sareri Hovin Mernem faded- we heard a loud cheer from much closer, and then chants growing louder and louder, a sound I had heard countless times in my years of covering protests; the sound of protestors breaking through police lines.
As we stood up to face what was coming, we saw them. Not angry nationalists waving the red flags of the Vatan Party, but thousands of Turks, Kurds, Greeks, and Assyrians, bearing signs reading "հո՛ս էնք" (We are here), bearing the pictures of Hrant Dink, Gomidas, Sevag Balikci, Taniel Varujan and many others, the streets echoing with their chants of solidarity.
A friend ran through the stunned crowd, arms wide open shouting "They are here with us! They have filled the street!"
So thank you. Thank you Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians for standing with us. Thank you Turkish human rights groups for organizing the commemoration at Hydarpasa. Thank you Istanbul Armenians. Thank Osman Kavala. Thank you Sarah Leah Whitson, Nancy Kricorian, Heghnar Watenpaugh, and everyone else at Project 2015.
There is no place else I would have rather been this week."
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  #46  
Old 26.04.2015, 09:33
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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How's this for a fixer: Let's not call it Turkey anymore. Problem solved?


The Problem is Armenia. Why ?
Because they are
A) right
B) wrong
Why again ?


Beacuse right they are when pointing to the massmurders committed by the Turkish Empire, but wrong they are by their attempt to pose as
JEWS MARK TWO.


Let's point to the DOCTRINES of the TURKISH REPUBLIC
A) No negative border changes can be accepted
B) No nationality inside Turkey is allowed to opt out
C) Sacrosanct is the VON DER GOLTZ MUSTAFA KEMAL LINE, which means what now is the border towards Iraq and Syria (since 1917)


Then a practical Problem for the Kurds. While all the Kurds have Kurdish as their national language, the Turkish Kurds have Turkish as SECOND language (education, economy) and are Turkish citizens, the Arab Kurds have Arabic as their SECOND language. And all Kurdish political parties on the Arab side have their exact Counterpart on the Turkish side


************************************************** ************************************************** ****




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I have an interest in this subject as I am a Brit of Armenian extraction. This Facebook post by a friend in Istanbul imo is worth posting here because it moved me:


"Yesterday was an indescribable day. My biggest fear going into the commemoration of the Armenian Genocide in Istanbul was that Erdogan, with elections approaching and a need to appeal to the MHP/nationalist voters, would see our presence on Istiklal Cd as a threat and that the police would then melt away, allowing the nationalist protestors to break through their lines and attack us.
As we sat facing towards Taxim Square, we could hear the shouts from the nationalists at our... backs every time the speakers would cut out. Chillingly it seemed to get louder and louder, as if they were edging nearer and nearer. Then - as the sounds of Sareri Hovin Mernem faded- we heard a loud cheer from much closer, and then chants growing louder and louder, a sound I had heard countless times in my years of covering protests; the sound of protestors breaking through police lines.
As we stood up to face what was coming, we saw them. Not angry nationalists waving the red flags of the Vatan Party, but thousands of Turks, Kurds, Greeks, and Assyrians, bearing signs reading "հո՛ս էնք" (We are here), bearing the pictures of Hrant Dink, Gomidas, Sevag Balikci, Taniel Varujan and many others, the streets echoing with their chants of solidarity.
A friend ran through the stunned crowd, arms wide open shouting "They are here with us! They have filled the street!"
So thank you. Thank you Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians for standing with us. Thank you Turkish human rights groups for organizing the commemoration at Hydarpasa. Thank you Istanbul Armenians. Thank Osman Kavala. Thank you Sarah Leah Whitson, Nancy Kricorian, Heghnar Watenpaugh, and everyone else at Project 2015.
There is no place else I would have rather been this week."



This nicely shows that there is a base for HOPE and confidence.
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  #47  
Old 26.04.2015, 14:04
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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So thank you. Thank you Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians for standing with us.
The Pope, and even Kanye West/Kim Kardashian deserves a nod in raising viral awareness. But as for President Obama....

...a classic case of failed leadership. In the face of overwhelming truth, chooses spinelessness over principles. what an emarrassment to be bested by an ego damaged pop star and a reality TV celebrity, in such a high profile International and historical matter. Here, you see a demonstration of what has happened to US leadership. They call it "leading fom behind".


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Beacuse right they are when pointing to the massmurders committed by the Turkish Empire, but wrong they are by their attempt to pose as
JEWS MARK TWO.
What the hell does that mean? The diaspora has created sooo many groups of Armenians now. When I meet an Armenian, my first curiosity is whether they are from Armenia, Turkish, Russian, Iranian, Lebanese, Greek, European, Amrican or what. And they do stick together. They are very much like the Jews now. They no longer have the luxury of squandering their identities the way current generation of Western nincompoops do.
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Old 26.04.2015, 21:55
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Re: 100 Years Ago

Yep, Obama has disappointed many with his Presidency

Obama made recognition of the genocide an election pledge but failed to deliver:
http://youtu.be/JWR9wvlS8Po
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  #49  
Old 26.04.2015, 22:14
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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What the hell does that mean? The diaspora has created sooo many groups of Armenians now. When I meet an Armenian, my first curiosity is whether they are from Armenia, Turkish, Russian, Iranian, Lebanese, Greek, European, Amrican or what. And they do stick together. They are very much like the Jews now. They no longer have the luxury of squandering their identities the way current generation of Western nincompoops do.

A justified question. But if everybody whose nation got victim of massmurders places demands and terrorises the nations of the culprits it simply goes too far. The history of the past five millenia is FULL of massmurders on an ethnical Basis
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Old 27.04.2015, 11:04
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Re: 100 Years Ago

My Godmother is Armenian. She now lives in France and has never understood the lack of perceived interest in the Armenian's plight.

There's a question that needs to be asked though. When is genocide history and when does it still need to be addressed by current generations?

Will Jews still feel the urge to quote their 6M loss 500 years after the event? Will the descendants of the Boers move on from their losses at the hands of the Brits and will the Chinese ever comprehend why Japan continues to play down the atrocities they carried out both before and during WW2?

I feel that when you have no valid current argument to prove a point, you use historical data to confuse or bullshit your opinion to emphasize your point of view. A Turk can't deny what happened in Armenia, but does someone born in 1985 have to bear the weight of history on his shoulders any more than Klaus from Düsseldorf born in 2003 has to feel guilty about what happened in Belsen 60 years previously?
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Old 27.04.2015, 11:59
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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A Turk can't deny what happened in Armenia, but does someone born in 1985 have to bear the weight of history on his shoulders any more than Klaus from Düsseldorf born in 2003 has to feel guilty about what happened in Belsen 60 years previously?
this point of view is very well-taken, but it would perhaps help if the government of Turkey would stop denying what happened.
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Old 27.04.2015, 12:47
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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A justified question. But if everybody whose nation got victim of massmurders places demands and terrorises the nations of the culprits it simply goes too far. The history of the past five millenia is FULL of massmurders on an ethnical Basis
Yeah, them damned armenian terrorists are all over Turkey with daily bombings everywhere and much worse. And now they even dare demand recognition of the crime!
[ / sarcasm]
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Old 27.04.2015, 14:20
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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this point of view is very well-taken, but it would perhaps help if the government of Turkey would stop denying what happened.
Interesting that Russia also spoke strongly about the genocide.

Also interesting the strong Turkish reaction reported here, Turkey seems determined to isolate themselves from their allies over this piece of history!
Quote "The Turkey government lashed out at the Russian government after they acknowledged the 1915 massacre of Armenians as genocide.

“Taking into account the mass atrocities and exiles in Caucasus, in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe committed by Russia for a century; collective punishment methods such as Holodomor as well as inhumane practices especially against Turkish and Muslim people in Russia’s own history, we consider that Russia is best-suited to know what exactly ‘genocide’ and its legal dimension are,” stated Turkey’s foreign ministry. “The only thing that Russia can do in this issue is to leave its biased attitude aside and encourage Armenia and the Armenians to respond positively to the calls of Turkey for peace and friendship.


And from the boss! "Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan claimed “Armenian lies” deceived these world leaders.
“The latest countries to speak of genocide are Germany, Russia and France,” he said. “What happened during the two world wars that had been initiated by Germany in the past century is before our eyes. First, they (Germany, Russia and France) must, one by one, clean the stains on their own histories.


Erdogan ignores the key point that these other countries do not deny their histories, unlike Turkey.
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Old 27.04.2015, 14:27
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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My Godmother is Armenian. She now lives in France and has never understood the lack of perceived interest in the Armenian's plight.

There's a question that needs to be asked though. When is genocide history and when does it still need to be addressed by current generations?

Will Jews still feel the urge to quote their 6M loss 500 years after the event? Will the descendants of the Boers move on from their losses at the hands of the Brits and will the Chinese ever comprehend why Japan continues to play down the atrocities they carried out both before and during WW2?

I feel that when you have no valid current argument to prove a point, you use historical data to confuse or bullshit your opinion to emphasize your point of view. A Turk can't deny what happened in Armenia, but does someone born in 1985 have to bear the weight of history on his shoulders any more than Klaus from Düsseldorf born in 2003 has to feel guilty about what happened in Belsen 60 years previously?
I think it's a good point. When you say "move on", that is exactly what diaspora Armenians have done round the world: they have got on with their lives in the countries they have settled in and in most cases have thrived.

Most Armenians want closure for the people who lost their lives, a recognition that the events took place by Turkey and by the Turkish government, the successor to the Ottomans.

The Turkish government can't even do that, they should "move on", admit to the genocide and join the C21.

I can only speak for myself, but three of my grandparents were genocide survivors, two settled in Mosul, one in Baghdad, my fourth grandparent was a wine merchant in Mosul.
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Old 27.04.2015, 14:51
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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My Godmother is Armenian. She now lives in France and has never understood the lack of perceived interest in the Armenian's plight.

There's a question that needs to be asked though. When is genocide history and when does it still need to be addressed by current generations?

Will Jews still feel the urge to quote their 6M loss 500 years after the event? Will the descendants of the Boers move on from their losses at the hands of the Brits and will the Chinese ever comprehend why Japan continues to play down the atrocities they carried out both before and during WW2?

I feel that when you have no valid current argument to prove a point, you use historical data to confuse or bullshit your opinion to emphasize your point of view. A Turk can't deny what happened in Armenia, but does someone born in 1985 have to bear the weight of history on his shoulders any more than Klaus from Düsseldorf born in 2003 has to feel guilty about what happened in Belsen 60 years previously?
Good points
I suppose it depends who spends time and money on keeping topics alive.

The armenian genocide was around a century ago and Israel was created around 70 years ago.

One continues to be a hot topic here and elsewhere (and the other not) although the Palestinian deaths and displacements were only a fraction of those suffered by the Armenians
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Old 27.04.2015, 18:35
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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There's a question that needs to be asked though. When is genocide history and when does it still need to be addressed by current generations?
Recall the quote, "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"? There's about a dozen variations of it attributed to various individuals.

So I wonder how different today would be if Turkey had owned up and condemned itself for the genocide much, much earlier. Perhaps spread the contrition throughout the region, around the world. Teach its children what happened. I wonder if ISIS would have the same grass roots support it has today from the region. I wonder if Hitler, who says, "Who speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?", would have been as inspired to the same genocide.

The whole purpose of acknowledging and remembering things like this is the past is to look at yourself if a mirror, and judge how you are doing. Of course it is important and can have impact on future behaviour.
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Old 27.04.2015, 19:00
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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So I wonder how different today would be if Turkey had owned up and condemned itself for the genocide much, much earlier. Perhaps spread the contrition throughout the region, around the world. Teach its children what happened.
Well one theory would be that the "West" would maybe have shown more good will in letting Turkey join the EU, the specter of the Armenian genocide has always soured Turkeys image with western politicains.
Imagine the map of the middle east today if Turkey had joined the EU in 2010 after the 2005 negotiations.
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Old 27.04.2015, 21:45
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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I have an interest in this subject as I am a Brit of Armenian extraction. This Facebook post by a friend in Istanbul imo is worth posting here because it moved me:

."

Hello fellow Armenian - probably the only other one on EF😀 sorry for hijacking the thread but couldn't resist!
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Old 28.04.2015, 01:28
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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Good points
I suppose it depends who spends time and money on keeping topics alive.

The armenian genocide was around a century ago and Israel was created around 70 years ago.

One continues to be a hot topic here and elsewhere (and the other not) although the Palestinian deaths and displacements were only a fraction of those suffered by the Armenians



It sure needs lots of improvement
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Old 28.04.2015, 01:42
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Re: 100 Years Ago

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I think it's a good point. When you say "move on", that is exactly what diaspora Armenians have done round the world: they have got on with their lives in the countries they have settled in and in most cases have thrived.

Most Armenians want closure for the people who lost their lives, a recognition that the events took place by Turkey and by the Turkish government, the successor to the Ottomans.

The Turkish government can't even do that, they should "move on", admit to the genocide and join the C21.

I can only speak for myself, but three of my grandparents were genocide survivors, two settled in Mosul, one in Baghdad, my fourth grandparent was a wine merchant in Mosul.

The Turkish Republic is NOT a successor to the Turkish Empire, neither dejure nor defacto.


Turks however HAVE TO accept that it was Turks who committed mass-murders against the Armenians and against the Arabs between 1910 and 1918




and should realise that they in the Arab World are respected and feared but NOT liked
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