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  #41  
Old 29.04.2015, 14:44
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Re: Baltimore riots

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Point taken, Brown v Board did not end segregation overnight but as a precedent it was a focus point for a civil movement that was already underway, segregation was no longer en vogue.
Yes America and others invest godzilians in Israel, but the US has invested trillions in the F35 project at the cost of civil infrastructure but that in neither here nor there, the question is: "do black communities get more than white communities" I had a look at the stats,
(http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...ending_40.html) they are byzantine to say the least, but I can't find anything that shows that white communities get more basic investment than black communities, it seems to me that the playing field is pretty even, what is not even is that black communities need more by the way of welfare than do white communities.

In my humble opinion it's not only about the money, everything possible is being done to give the black community the same opportunities as everybody else enjoys, so what went wrong in Detorit, Chicago south side, Jackson, Birmingham?
these are fair points, but I don't view welfare as "investment". if you look at investment in infrastructure - schools, roads, hospitals, parks - I suspect you will find a remarkable delta between historically white and black communities, in large part because that kind of funding occurs at the state and municipal levels and is driven by property and other local taxes. for example, the public high school in the suburb where I was raised north of Detroit had a fully-equipped computer lab a full 10 years before the public high schools in Detroit had their first computer, meaning my high school was sending kids off to college to study computer science and engineering 10 years before the kids from the city of Detroit saw their first computer. the example is 30 years old now, but the concept still exists and public schools in American urban centers are still running at least 10 years behind their suburban contemporaries in terms of infrastructure and access to capital.

I only really know Detroit, and a local reporter does a better job than I ever could at explaining the genesis of many of the same problems the city still struggles with today:

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  #42  
Old 29.04.2015, 15:01
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Re: Baltimore riots

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So you're saying violence against people violent to you is a viable tactic?!?
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Old 29.04.2015, 15:05
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I can well understand these frustrations but that's not the way forward, and you know it.
How would that help? Isn't society stratified enough? (everywhere, not just in the USA)
Of course I know it, however what do you think will happen when more and more inner cities burn, given the ongoing militarizing of the (civilian) police force where do you see things in 10 years? At some point you are going to get a positive feedback going where a trigger happy police force arm up in response to a greater threat from the inner cites, the inner cites are going to become more aggressive in the face of a increasingly militarized police, Ad nauseam.
Oh wait, that is already happening.
Pilatus1`s data on stop and frisk is frightening. (http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data) now don´t get me wrong,I like the fact that the data is freely available, something you don´t get from a subersive government, frightening is that the majority of people stopped are black, is it random checks because the guy is black or is it pattern recognition? Or to put it simply are more black stopped and frisked because (inner city, notice I write inner city) blacks are more inclined to be criminal?
From the Data it would seem that from 46.235 people stopped 8.184 were stopped for a good reason, how many crimes stopped does that translate to?
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  #44  
Old 29.04.2015, 15:32
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Re: Baltimore riots

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Oh wait, that is already happening.
Pilatus1`s data on stop and frisk is frightening. (http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data) now don´t get me wrong,I like the fact that the data is freely available, something you don´t get from a subersive government, frightening is that the majority of people stopped are black, is it random checks because the guy is black or is it pattern recognition? Or to put it simply are more black stopped and frisked because (inner city, notice I write inner city) blacks are more inclined to be criminal?
From the Data it would seem that from 46.235 people stopped 8.184 were stopped for a good reason, how many crimes stopped does that translate to?
Maybe they are doing the stop/frisk in areas that have a high black percentage/population, and are merely stopping more blacks on average because there are more blacks walking down the street in the area on average?… but i doubt it.

Interesting is the fact that black NYC police officers also stop-and-frisk other blacks at a higher rate than whites. I can't find the article to post a link, but i read it just the other day…

The expectation of criminal behavior by blacks is an American cultural, and not necessarily just racist, phenomenon.

If you've never read Richard Wright's Native Son, check it out…

As James Baldwin once wrote: ""No American Negro exists who does not have his private Bigger Thomas living in his skull."

(Bigger Thomas is the main character, who commits hideous acts almost as a way of fulfilling the black destiny that American society has instilled in his head…)

As for the crimes stopped by stop/frisk techniques…the stop/frisk is often a crime in and of itself - completely unconstitutional. Most of the 'crimes' committed by those stopped were small quantity marijuana possession - though statistically just as many white people smoke weed as black people.

Another interesting note is that the white people who were stopped were 2 or 3 times more likely to be carrying a weapon or drugs than blacks or latinos..
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  #45  
Old 29.04.2015, 15:57
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Re: Baltimore riots

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Maybe they are doing the stop/frisk in areas that have a high black percentage/population, and are merely stopping more blacks on average because there are more blacks walking down the street in the area on average?… but i doubt it.

Interesting is the fact that black NYC police officers also stop-and-frisk other blacks at a higher rate than whites. I can't find the article to post a link, but i read it just the other day…

The expectation of criminal behavior by blacks is an American cultural, and not necessarily just racist, phenomenon.

If you've never read Richard Wright's Native Son, check it out…

As James Baldwin once wrote: ""No American Negro exists who does not have his private Bigger Thomas living in his skull."

(Bigger Thomas is the main character, who commits hideous acts almost as a way of fulfilling the black destiny that American society has instilled in his head…)

As for the crimes stopped by stop/frisk techniques…the stop/frisk is often a crime in and of itself - completely unconstitutional. Most of the 'crimes' committed by those stopped were small quantity marijuana possession - though statistically just as many white people smoke weed as black people.

Another interesting note is that the white people who were stopped were 2 or 3 times more likely to be carrying a weapon or drugs than blacks or latinos..
The site Thinkprogress seems to be firmly rooted in the liberal camp and is indeed not free of controversial cherry-picking of data and pulling stories straight out of their assses. Not too sure what to make of them.
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  #46  
Old 29.04.2015, 16:10
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Re: Baltimore riots

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The site Thinkprogress seems to be firmly rooted in the liberal camp and is indeed not free of controversial cherry-picking of data and pulling stories straight out of their assses. Not too sure what to make of them.
I can't think of any news site that is free from cherry-picking data - but the NYPD's own statistics don't lie. Here's another source. (Though the numbers don't add up between the two sources. 2 or 3 times more likely? maybe not..)
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Old 29.04.2015, 17:40
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I like the fact that the data is freely available, something you don´t get from a subersive government, frightening is that the majority of people stopped are black, is it random checks because the guy is black or is it pattern recognition? Or to put it simply are more black stopped and frisked because (inner city, notice I write inner city) blacks are more inclined to be criminal?[/I]
From the Data it would seem that from 46.235 people stopped 8.184 were stopped for a good reason, how many crimes stopped does that translate to?
Suppose these data are correct: still not a good reason for apartheid.
I don't see how racial segregation would solve higher poverty and criminality rates.
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Old 29.04.2015, 17:45
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Re: Baltimore riots

What this reminds me of is this great line from that great American book:
"but how in the nation are these fellows going to be ransomed if we don't know how to do it to them?"

Only the verb is different. But wait, I think we can retain the verb.
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Old 29.04.2015, 18:14
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Re: Baltimore riots

Remember Michael Moore's analogy of why fear is such a great control mechanism of the American population?

A brief history of the USA

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Old 29.04.2015, 18:57
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Re: Baltimore riots

A friend of mine has a few copy's of The Negro Motorist Green Book from his grandfather, now that makes for an interesting read if you want an incite to ´ol timy segregation and Jim Crow.
Thing is America sees it´s self as the melting pot of humanity, and for most part it is, the Anglo-European settlers from countries that have had nothing in common historically have more or less merged to become „the“ American much the same as the Afro-American „immigrants“ (for want of a better word) from African countries that have had nothing in common historically have merged to become the Afro-American.
So why can´t black and white merge?
One reason would be that at school I want my children to learn about European culture, I want them to learn about European history, I want them to learn maths, geography, writing, I want them to read the classics or at least to have heard about them, African culture is not high on my agenda, I would not want my kids to have predominantly black studies on the curriculum, just as LaToya or Braylon or Jamar don´t want to learn Shakespeare and have no interest in the Viking cultural influence in Ireland.
Are the differences between black or white larger that those of the Calvinists, Huguenot, Catholics and Romanians and Russians and Irish and Norwegians etc.
Why then do we keep trying to force a togetherheid that nobody wants? Why not let each manage their own affairs as they wish?
Already you have the seeds of segregation, not just in the tension between black and white in America but in the inner cites of England, France, Germany between the followers of Mohammed and the Kuffar.
It´s something that needs to be addressed and soon otherwise we will stand in the wreckage of both sides.
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Old 29.04.2015, 19:09
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Re: Baltimore riots

I have a solution to this problem: Do nothing

Because the problem is being framed as a race based problem, and I don't think there is a race based solution, whether segregation or desegregation. For as long as people identify themselves with a particular race, of course they will have differences with others. But the fact is people get along fine without identifying themselves as such. What needs to happen is for people to focus and develop their own individual identities. And it works quite well. People advance fine based on their individual merits, when they stop focusing on race or some other collectivist classification that screws with their own minds. If they do well and earn it, they may even be President one day.
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Old 29.04.2015, 19:24
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I have a solution to this problem: Do nothing

Because the problem is being framed as a race based problem, and I don't think there is a race based solution, whether segregation or desegregation. For as long as people identify themselves with a particular race, of course they will have differences with others. But the fact is people get along fine without identifying themselves as such. What needs to happen is for people to focus and develop their own individual identities. And it works quite well. People advance fine based on their individual merits, when they stop focusing on race or some other collectivist classification that screws with their own minds. If they do well and earn it, they may even be President one day.
No, It´s not a racial issue at the core, it´s a tribal issue, blame it on race is just cosmetic, it´s the way humans have evolved, being tribal/racist seems to be hardwired into our brains, it´s not even political, now if we can find a way to go against our programming then you may see progress.
It´s not difficult for you, it´s not difficult for me, or for (I would say) all here on the forum, education and travel are the sworn enemies of racism but even then the EF members could be seen as a "tribe" firmly embedded in their ex-pat bubble where EFer´s can talk amongst themselves and help each other and give advise, you may not see the tribalism but your Swiss neighbor may.
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Old 29.04.2015, 19:57
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Re: Baltimore riots

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A friend of mine has a few copy's of The Negro Motorist Green Book from his grandfather, now that makes for an interesting read if you want an incite to ´ol timy segregation and Jim Crow.
Thing is America sees it´s self as the melting pot of humanity, and for most part it is, the Anglo-European settlers from countries that have had nothing in common historically have more or less merged to become „the“ American much the same as the Afro-American „immigrants“ (for want of a better word) from African countries that have had nothing in common historically have merged to become the Afro-American.
So why can´t black and white merge?
One reason would be that at school I want my children to learn about European culture, I want them to learn about European history, I want them to learn maths, geography, writing, I want them to read the classics or at least to have heard about them, African culture is not high on my agenda, I would not want my kids to have predominantly black studies on the curriculum, just as LaToya or Braylon or Jamar don´t want to learn Shakespeare and have no interest in the Viking cultural influence in Ireland.
Are the differences between black or white larger that those of the Calvinists, Huguenot, Catholics and Romanians and Russians and Irish and Norwegians etc.
Why then do we keep trying to force a togetherheid that nobody wants? Why not let each manage their own affairs as they wish?
Already you have the seeds of segregation, not just in the tension between black and white in America but in the inner cites of England, France, Germany between the followers of Mohammed and the Kuffar.
It´s something that needs to be addressed and soon otherwise we will stand in the wreckage of both sides.
I don't know to which togetherheid you are referring to (I personally don't feel that I'm forced to anything, least of all things to a "togetherheid")
As for the American case... is called a country, isn't it? Blacks and whites are part of that country and they should have equal rights and obligations.
Why do you worry so much?
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Old 29.04.2015, 20:13
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I don't know to which togetherheid you are referring to (I personally don't feel that I'm forced to anything, least of all things to a "togetherheid")
As for the American case... is called a country, isn't it? Blacks and whites are part of that country and they should have equal rights and obligations.
Why do you worry so much?
I´m not worried, I am addressing the question of why there is a curfew in Baltimore and I am basing my answers and opinions on things that I have seen and experienced in American inner cities that picket-fence Americans see only in the news, it has been some years since I was there, that much I agree, but have things gotten any better? I don´t think so but then I am a cynical SOB.
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Old 29.04.2015, 20:31
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I´m not worried, I am addressing the question of why there is a curfew in Baltimore and I am basing my answers and opinions on things that I have seen and experienced in American inner cities that picket-fence Americans see only in the news, it has been some years since I was there, that much I agree, but have things gotten any better? I don´t think so but then I am a cynical SOB.
Yes Slammer but those picket-fence Americans are just like everyone else, each living in their own social environment/bubble which is, let's face it- mainly determined by the economic status/financial situation. I live in a middle-class area (I suppose) and can't really see all the things that other people seem to be so well aware of. Sorry but I can only relate to my "bubble"- which btw has nothing to do with my colour/nationality/etc.
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Old 29.04.2015, 20:40
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Re: Baltimore riots

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Yes Slammer but those picket-fence Americans are just like everyone else, each living in their own social environment/bubble which is, let's face it- mainly determined by the economic status/financial situation. I live in a middle-class area (I suppose) and can't really see all the things that other people seem to be so well aware of. Sorry but I can only relate to my "bubble"- which btw has nothing to do with my colour/nationality/etc.
And there you have it in a nutshell, each in his own bubble but as I said a bit earlier, travel and education are the enemies of racism, you could ad prejudgement and narrow mindedness to that.
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Old 29.04.2015, 20:48
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Re: Baltimore riots

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And there you have it in a nutshell, each in his own bubble but as I said a bit earlier, travel and education are the enemies of racism, you could ad prejudgement and narrow mindedness to that.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice." -Mark Twain.
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Old 29.04.2015, 21:33
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Re: Baltimore riots

an interesting insight into racism in america, is dr. joy degruy. this is long, maybe too long for some, but imho a very good lecture. even if you don't agree with her, you can see that there is a long, complex history behind the issues that come up today.

for those who have the time and the interest
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Old 29.04.2015, 22:36
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Re: Baltimore riots

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an interesting insight into racism in america, is dr. joy degruy. this is long, maybe too long for some, but imho a very good lecture. even if you don't agree with her, you can see that there is a long, complex history behind the issues that come up today.
I'm so sorry I can't listen to all of her lecture now, but you're right. She's spot on when she talks about racism of the blacks vs. racism of the whites. Whereas the first one exists but is powerless (you can sing I hate you all day long), the second one could deprive the blacks from economic opportunities (e.g. getting a loan), health care, education etc. I hope I'll find enough time one day to go through all of it.
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Old 29.04.2015, 22:44
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Re: Baltimore riots

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I'm so sorry I can't listen to all of her lecture now, but you're right. She's spot on when she talks about racism of the blacks vs. racism of the whites. Whereas the first one exists but is powerless (you can sing I hate you all day long), the second one could deprive the blacks from economic opportunities (e.g. getting a loan), health care, education etc. I hope I'll find enough time one day to go through all of it.
i'm glad you gave it a go. it's worth it when you have the time- and eye-opening for people who are ready to look at another view. it was a long shot posting it as it is long, but well worth it
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