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Old 17.05.2015, 16:56
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Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

(Mods, feel free to move this if you feel it rather belongs in the Pet or News corner)

Wanted to share this news, since I feel like there havenít recently been all too many positive animal welfare related stories. Norway is setting up a police project that is solely responsible for tackling crimes against animals.

http://www.care2.com/causes/norway-c...l-cruelty.html

I liked that they stress that Norwayís legislations are contradictory when it comes to animal rights, most notably because Ė despite being a progressive nationĖ they allow such cruel practices as whaling. I suppose the same can be said for the practices and laws of other nations. The reasons therefore appear to be a conflict of interest between (pressure toward) protecting wildlife and greed to monetize natural resources.

Here is another link from the article, where they tried to illustrate which countries were pioneers of animal protection and which were deathtraps for animals.

https://www.thedodo.com/animal-prote...852208021.html

Switzerland is featured as one of the best places to be an animal. I would like to hear about EF membersí opinions on whether they agree with Switzerland being a relatively safe place for animals.
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Old 17.05.2015, 17:53
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Switzerland is featured as one of the best places to be an animal. I would like to hear about EF members’ opinions on whether they agree with Switzerland being a relatively safe place for animals.
Switzerland has some of the most impressive animal welfare legislation I've ever seen on it's books.

Which is often not enforced, or only enforced selectively.


---

Yes, it is better in Switzerland than in many other countries. But Switzerland is so very small and so very wealthy - we ought to be able to do better. Sadly, the the political and cultural will is simply not there.
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Old 17.05.2015, 18:06
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

Personally, I find it great that Norway still does whailing, as I enjoy eating whale, and whaling was for centuries a major industry of my home state (Connecticut).

Tom
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Old 17.05.2015, 18:30
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

meloncollie, that was my impression as well. Overall I feel Switzerland has the funds and infrastructure to truly make a difference for animals, but perhaps what is lacking is dedication and empathy. (These are just my private observations after living in Switzerland for over a decate)

st2lemans, it is likely that whaling had little ecological impact in the past, however considering todayís commercial mass hunting, it is safe to say there is an effect on fish stocks, in addition to the impeding extinction of certain whale species.

Nothing against you st2lemans, but I believe we will have to be less selfish about our food needs/wants and more concerned about the environment we leave behind for future generations.

I know few people care about what happens when they are gone, rather focusing on having their needs met, but it pains me to see wild animal species becoming endangered or forever disappearing on the hands of money-hungry individuals. I hope more countries will follow lead and establish special police and legal forces to preserve our habitat.
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Old 17.05.2015, 18:36
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

yes switzerland is safe, both for pets and farm animals (mandatory minimum space, open space, etc.), but it's not only about the laws. say italy has restrictive laws but then has thousands of stray and feral dogs not even microchipped and more thousands held in kennels (just to make money with public money, it's a big business), puppy trafficking from hungary and the czech republic is also rampant.
Hard to define safety anyway, I don't think a global index is of any help, one should address the single issues. Whale hunting doesn't seem different than other hunting, i guess hunters look what species the whale is before hunting it no?
I don't think a special police is needed, there's already several agencies already doing that job (cantonal veterinarian's office, police, associations and hunting and fishing agency).
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Old 17.05.2015, 19:36
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Nothing against you st2lemans, but I believe we will have to be less selfish about our food needs/wants and more concerned about the environment we leave behind for future generations.

I know few people care about what happens when they are gone, rather focusing on having their needs met, but it pains me to see wild animal species becoming endangered or forever disappearing on the hands of money-hungry individuals. I hope more countries will follow lead and establish special police and legal forces to preserve our habitat.
+1

In our recklessness we behave as if we are the last people... No, nature does not belong to us.
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Old 17.05.2015, 19:51
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

+1

In the UK, I worked as a volunteer with an organisation that worked closely with out local police wildlife liaison officers- normal police part of the regular police force, but with a special interest and specific training to do with wildlife crime- be it badger baiting, or badger destruction by farmers or developers, dog and cock fighting, illegal fox hunting, shooting and poisoning of birds of prey by game keepers or pigeon fanciers, destruction of swallows' nests, etc,- and animal cruelty of every kind. That was very sucessful, although did depend on the devotion of the local county officers - ours always went way beyond the call of duty.

I agree that animals are in general so much better looked after here, especially with rules of husbandry- but it seems some farmers do get through the net, again and again, whilst others get caught for tiny infractions- and one does wonder how? (well, we can guess ).

Last edited by Odile; 17.05.2015 at 23:02.
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Old 17.05.2015, 20:16
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

Why doesn't the quote button work?

Anyway lorena1 wrote

"st2lemans, it is likely that whaling had little ecological impact in the past, however considering todayís commercial mass hunting, it is safe to say there is an effect on fish stocks, in addition to the impeding extinction of certain whale species."

I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. It WAS the past whaling that has had the ecological impact, and there is now hardly any commercial whaling. We don't need whale oil for our carriage lamps anymore. The coasts of the great oceans are littered with the remains of abandoned whaling stations. The Norwegians may take some minke whales but there are loads of them (and st2lemans is right - the steak is delicious). And the Norwegians have proved themselves by far the best husbander (is that a word?) of fish stocks in the world so they're not likely to hunt out their stocks of whales as well.

I'm not denying that it may be cruel but in ecological terms it's irrelevant.
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Old 17.05.2015, 20:43
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

Yes, quoting doesn't seem to work.

Anyway, Norway hunts whales and seals as part of their ecological control.

And both taste great, however I prefer seal as schnitzel and whale as carpaccio.

Tom
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Old 17.05.2015, 21:59
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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yes switzerland is safe, both for pets and farm animals.
Not in Basel

Rough translation, someone left poison in the park, and two dogs ate it, one died, one survived.
Dogs are not permitted in the park, and obviously some jerk has taken exception to other jerks walking their dogs there, rather than report it to the police or just man up and have it out with the dog walkers.
I mentioned it to a Swissy at work, she said one of her dogs was poisoned in local woods, and said it was 'quite common'.
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Old 17.05.2015, 23:24
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

Whales are very nice to look at, very graceful in movement, but if you eat fish or meat of any type I don't see why you should be upset about people eating whale meat. Never understood the fuss about whaling whilst the seas are being emptied of lots of other fish types.
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Old 18.05.2015, 00:01
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

I believe it's appropriate to 'make a fuss' out of emptying the seas.

Certain whales are already endangered and - apart from driving yet another species extinct - what we are causing with dwindling numbers of whale populations is a change in the food chain, leading to an unstable flow and ultimately an ailing ocean ecosystem.

Also, sounds a bit morbid, but when a whale dies, it becomes a great food source to pretty much all sea creatures in the lower waters. On top of that, whale excrements actually help phytoplankton to grow. As you might know, phytoplankton are very important. Among other things, they take carbon from the air, thus cleaning the atmosphere for the animals and plants.

Simply put: the inbalance caused by whaling leads to unhealthy seas. Again, I realize that most people don't feel affected - after all they live on land. I on the other side, feel we need to act urgently before there are irreversible consequences for future generations.

Also, not sure if you are aware of whaling practices, but they are usually inhumane and cruel, leaving the poor animals to suffer great pains before they finally die and hacked for consumption. That alone is reason enough to stop it. I mean, whales - like us humans - are intelligent creatures that are capable of complex emotions. They deserve to be treated as such in my opinion.

Thanks everyone for your opinions in this thread. As you can probably tell, I'm a big supporter of animal rights. In most countries animals are legally considered to be things. In the last decades though I've seen a shift in this thinking and although progress is very slow, it seems there is a tangible chance at a better protection for (certain) animals. Thus, news like the Norway's new police project, or two chimpanzee being granted legal personhood (http://www.nonhumanrightsproject.org...habeas-corpus/) make me very hopeful.

Last edited by lorena1; 18.05.2015 at 00:02. Reason: corrected typo.. it's late -.-
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Old 18.05.2015, 06:36
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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... whaling whilst the seas are being emptied of lots of other fish types.
<Peter Cook>

Did you know that the whale isn't really a fish?

.

.

.

It's an insect!

</Peter Cook>
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Old 18.05.2015, 08:20
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

A few of you think that Switzerland is a great place to be if you're a farmyard animal, but that's an illusion. So many cows still have their horns removed and are given bells which causes incredible distress. Farm conditions can be appalling and a lack of successful prosecutions against so called farmers or slaughterhouse owners prevents progress being made.

Read up about some of the issues here: http://www.tier-im-fokus.ch

So many people think that caring for animals relates to your pet cats and dogs, yet sparing a thought for the creatures that were killed to put meat on your plate seems to be considered another topic altogether. It isn't. Every second, two animals are slaughtered. If you'd like to do something about it, there's a demo in Bern July 11, 2015. More details here: http://www.tier-im-fokus.ch/demo/
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Old 18.05.2015, 08:25
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Every second, two animals are slaughtered. If you'd like to do something about it, there's a demo in Bern July 11, 2015. More details here: http://www.tier-im-fokus.ch/demo/
Great, I always wanted to see a demo on how to slaughter an animal!

Will they be providing a grill-party afterwards, perhaps with some whale testicle beer to wash it down?

Tom
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Old 18.05.2015, 08:39
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Great, I always wanted to see a demo on how to slaughter an animal!

Will they be providing a grill-party afterwards, perhaps with some whale testicle beer to wash it down?

Tom
Now, you are talking bollocks.
Hope you have a whale of time.


P.S. is the beer made from a sperm whale?
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Old 18.05.2015, 10:54
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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. Farm conditions can be appalling and a lack of successful prosecutions against so called farmers or slaughterhouse owners prevents progress being made.
Yes indeed.

While we have decent animal welfare laws on the books, the reality is that the political clout of the farmers (based largely on city dweller nostalgia, out of proportion to farming's economic contribution) means that conditions and activities blatantly contrary to animal welfare law are still being practiced - largely without consequences.

It takes an awful lot to bring a case, in part because no one wants to hear about animal abuse. No, we'd rather look at the pretty picture-postcard farms and feel smug about the myth of happy frolicing farm animals.

----

One (finally) successful prosecution is detailed in this article by Tier Im Recht - the long process makes an interesting read:

http://www.tierimrecht.org/de/news/2...n_Landwirt.php


---

My experience is only with pet animals, but the same problem exists. We have fairly decent laws, but we have little enforcement.

Part of the problem, IMO, is the attitude towards laws in all areas, not just animal welfare. There seems to be a widespread idea that once a law is in place, once the Powers That Be have been seen to have 'done something' then the job is done, everyone will naturally comply. So no need to devote resources to enforcement.

But few actually do comply. In fact, I have seen that contrary to the myth of the law-abiding Swiss the reality is that it is far more common here to blithely ignore any law one personally does not agree with.

(Just look at how many people are still - 7 years on - not compliant with the SKN course requirement, have no intention of following the law because it's based on the honor system, without consequences. It's getting worse each year as the memory of Oberglatt fades.)

---

Yes, it is better here than in many countries. But given how low that particular bar is set, 'better' is still not good enough.
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Old 18.05.2015, 11:17
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Not in Basel
And in Schwyz:
Warning: Recent poisoning incidents in SZ

I live in the village where this happened; many of the folks I have spoken to have simply shrugged their shoulders and said 'selber schuld'.

There has been little outcry or shock that someone would do such a sick thing to an innocent animal - and innocent animal owners, the people whose dogs have been hurt are responsible pet owners.

Animal abuse just doesn't register on many peoples' moral radar.

It's a sad world we live in.
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Old 18.05.2015, 13:03
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

melancollie,
I agree with you that the general population appears to have little empathy when it comes to animal tragedies. Instead of being outraged and make sure something like that wonít happen again, they push the matter aside like it was some minor issue. As long as it doesnít directly affect them they wonít protest or even give a thought about it.

We havenít recently had poisoning incidents nearby, but instead Iíve had one neighbor put her cat to sleep, because she thought it was a hassle to give her medicine on a regular basis for the rest of that catís life. I wished she would have told me that because I would have happily adopted that cat : (
Another neighbor takes her pet to the vet twice a year to give her a haircut under narcosis; well knowing a haircut isn't necessary and it isnít healthy to have narcosis repeatedly for several years. I often wonder why people even get pets if they arenít fully aboard with the responsibility that comes with that. I suppose many are very lonely.

There are many active animal rights group in the EU, including Eurogroup for Animals, which has been successfully campaigning for improvements in the way farm animals are treated (slaughter practices, cloning) , along other causes (e.g. animal testing, fur farms, illegal trade). The EU has passed new laws for animals, most notably prohibiting animal testing. Unfortunately, Switzerland isn't as progressive. As far as I know animal testing has decreased in the recent years (if we can even trust the data) but it's still happening and that is a shame for a country like Switzerland.

I know there are active animal rights supporters in Switzerland as well, but I donít feel like their cries are heard at federal or cantonal level and that is mostly due to the societal views that animals donít deserve to be protected. Iíd go even further and say lots of people are annoyed about animal welfare issues, feeling that they have enough problems as is.

As an example, an article about Swiss voters rejecting lawyers for animals (from 2010) states that people thought it was odd to hire lawyers for animals: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eferendum.html

Why is it odd to let legally unprotected beings receive help We have mandatory legal representation for the cruelest criminals out there but not for enslaved wildlife being exploited in zoos and circuses, or farm animals living in horrible conditions, only to die an unimaginable death.
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Old 18.05.2015, 13:15
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Re: Norway's police project to combat crimes against animals

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Why doesn't the quote button work?

Anyway lorena1 wrote

"st2lemans, it is likely that whaling had little ecological impact in the past, however considering todayís commercial mass hunting, it is safe to say there is an effect on fish stocks, in addition to the impeding extinction of certain whale species."

I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. It WAS the past whaling that has had the ecological impact, and there is now hardly any commercial whaling. We don't need whale oil for our carriage lamps anymore. The coasts of the great oceans are littered with the remains of abandoned whaling stations. The Norwegians may take some minke whales but there are loads of them (and st2lemans is right - the steak is delicious). And the Norwegians have proved themselves by far the best husbander (is that a word?) of fish stocks in the world so they're not likely to hunt out their stocks of whales as well.

I'm not denying that it may be cruel but in ecological terms it's irrelevant.
Furthermore, from my understanding, the species that are being whaled (is this the word?) are not the same as the species that are acutely threatened.

Of course it is legitimate to question the ethics of hunting them nevertheless, but then so should we question the practices of hunting sharks and other species that are also threatened but which we don't feel the same level of sympathy for.
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