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  #61  
Old 26.06.2015, 20:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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The third one is a character reference, not evidence. If Einstein said 2+2=5 and eight other Nobel laureates said he's always right, would you believe him?
It's called peer review.

If you're a scientist you're supposed to believe it's good good good.

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Old 26.06.2015, 20:59
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First...the person who made these comments is well-regarded and is a role model for many. His impact is great because his opinions reach so many educated people. Second, in some parts of the world women and girls are still treated like dirt or worse, if parents-to-be didn't abort them when they found out the fetus is a girl. Third, tell me that right here in Switzerland you don't know first hand of women who weren't given the same opportunities as their equally-educated counterparts on their career paths/ladder.

It would be interesting to find out if this Nobel prize winner acted on his beliefs. Tell me that you thought of Crick and Watson the same way before and after you found out that they in fact stole the DNA info from Franklin, and didn't even credit her work.

Groan all you want, protest all you want, we know that women are still paid for the same work a lot less to less but not yet equally to men, and those who have children suffer even worse financial consequences. These facts speak volumes, and comments like Hunt's only hurt the advances we, as humanity, made towards treating each other equally.

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"The third one is a character reference, not evidence. If Einstein said 2+2=5 and eight other Nobel laureates said he's always right, would you believe him?
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It's called peer review.

If you're a scientist you're supposed to believe it's good good good.

2+2=5 for large values of 2

Last edited by 3Wishes; 27.06.2015 at 14:10. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #63  
Old 26.06.2015, 21:51
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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women are doing twice as well as men:

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full

If you are struggling as a scientist, it may not be because you are a woman.
Seriously? The Ceci paper is so flawed I don't even know where to begin: it is about HYPOTHETICAL responses to HYPOTHETICAL candidates (where the subjects knew they were involved in a study about gender bias and god do we know that gender bias is NOT OK) and nothing like a real world hiring process which is based on social interactions where unconcious bias plays a role. If you believe bias against women does not exist in academia, you are blind.
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Old 26.06.2015, 21:57
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

... and in business and finance too ...

I was lucky to be in education, one of the few fields where this does no longer apply to the same extent. Even so, I believe Senior staff, and Heads are still very much in the majority.

Daughter numero uno is the only female partner in a team of 30- so about 3.5% and her firm is very progressive and in London, not the boonies.
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  #65  
Old 26.06.2015, 21:58
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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If women researchers are equal to men, then you don't need all those special considerations. Promoting the idea that women are victims of men and need special treatment does not support equality. If women are considered 'more equal' then men then one can be guaranteed of a massive backlash, one of which already peaks its head out once and awhile.
...
There's nothing worse for personal development than a person giving up their own agency so that they can celebrate their victimhood.
The funny thing is, you're making a point, just not the one you think you are making.
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  #66  
Old 26.06.2015, 22:59
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Going back to the OP (not sure how off-topic the thread is after 4 pages, being EF and all that)


This article made me smile with a bit of relief - in a way, maybe he'll be glad to escape the whole circus

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...-collins#img-1
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  #67  
Old 26.06.2015, 23:31
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Can anyone find the list of Dr Hunt's PhD graduates, masters and postdocs? I am having a hard time locating it.
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  #68  
Old 27.06.2015, 08:43
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Whether we think jokes like that, with the fall out potential, are benign or not is irrelevant, me thinks. So are his personal views on issues and, sadly, his scientific contribution.

I think it boils down to an institution pushing an individual to realize what his job role is. Apparently, an individual represents the institution, and it is up to them to control when and in what views. One doesn't have to be a braniac to figure out - nor have an acceptable sense of humor, just know when to joke or do it anonymously.

If an institution doesn't wish to have this particular form of publicity, they will exercise their right. The line between a bad joke and a disparaging comment is too thin, he should have thought about people who won't understand it, people who might be affected by this misunderstanding and people who might take his opion for his employer's opinion. The era of academic freedom is gone, the era of employer's public image has started long time ago. His work results won't buy him out of the particular responsibility his job role requires.

(Btw, love at work environment is a frequent phenomenon, it's so logical and pragmatically mechanical - availability. And I don't cry at work, but maybe some people do, some also sneeze, get hungry, yawn, smile...Wow.)
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  #69  
Old 27.06.2015, 10:13
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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... and in business and finance too ...

I was lucky to be in education, one of the few fields where this does no longer apply to the same extent. Even so, I believe Senior staff, and Heads are still very much in the majority.

Daughter numero uno is the only female partner in a team of 30- so about 3.5% and her firm is very progressive and in London, not the boonies.
As a male who lost a job opportunity to a lesser-qualified woman due to gender quotas (as reported to me by the manager, who was forced by his superior to make that choice and who gave me a contractor role instead), I don't much care what the ratio of men to women in the partnership is. If the woman is better qualified (and willing to work just as hard, a part of "qualified" that many people seem to forget) then she should get the job. If the opposite, then the man should get the job.

Quotas are degrading and hurt the "beneficiary" in subtle ways as they breed resentment. As a hiring manager, I will never select a female candidate over a male simply because of her gender. Nor will I go the other way. No two people are equal, and you can always find a differentiator better than gender.
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Old 27.06.2015, 10:21
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Could be a case for 'Weird Science', that worked for me!
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Old 27.06.2015, 10:22
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

I can fully understand your issue, my husband found this situation years ago when females were promoted above him just to raise the profiles of the numbers in senior roles.
It really does no favours to anyone for them to get a job or promotion because they fit the company quotas.
This is not feminism at but discrimination against men. All those who have worked hard for equal rights did so to be judged equally not to tick a quota box.
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  #72  
Old 27.06.2015, 10:41
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Whether he was joking or not, isn't he entitled to his own opinions? What ever happened to free speech?
Went out the door when political correctness moved in.

You're only allowed to make jokes about white men these days. Otherwise it's either sexist or racist.
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  #73  
Old 27.06.2015, 10:45
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

This thread needs more Carry On or Benny Hill.
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  #74  
Old 27.06.2015, 11:25
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

I think the question is, if the employer considers these types of comments to indicate that the prof is lesser quolified for what is expected of him (the setting was pretty official), then so be it.
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Old 27.06.2015, 11:35
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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I can fully understand your issue, my husband found this situation years ago when females were promoted above him just to raise the profiles of the numbers in senior roles.
It really does no favours to anyone for them to get a job or promotion because they fit the company quotas.
This is not feminism at but discrimination against men. All those who have worked hard for equal rights did so to be judged equally not to tick a quota box.
And it's always because they fit the company quotas...perhaps they too have the same qualities and qualifications and it happens to be chosen over men with similar chances? (indeed, it's a "brave" thing from those who make these decisions, they know know it very well there will be complaints/objections, and I suspect they wash their hands by saying - you know, the quota thing)
I've heard this "theory" even from my hubby (in his defend he made this comment only once and only re. a specific case tbh), but to me it seems just sour grapes kind of thing.
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Old 27.06.2015, 11:42
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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As a male who lost a job opportunity to a lesser-qualified woman due to gender quotas (as reported to me by the manager, who was forced by his superior to make that choice and who gave me a contractor role instead), I don't much care what the ratio of men to women in the partnership is. If the woman is better qualified (and willing to work just as hard, a part of "qualified" that many people seem to forget) then she should get the job. If the opposite, then the man should get the job.

Quotas are degrading and hurt the "beneficiary" in subtle ways as they breed resentment. As a hiring manager, I will never select a female candidate over a male simply because of her gender. Nor will I go the other way. No two people are equal, and you can always find a differentiator better than gender.
Absolutely, she thinks the same. No quotas, but an open mind and policy- without prejudice either way.

One of the Senior teachers appointed at one of the schools where I taught was chosen because he was good at football- despite having less relevant experience than the 2 women applicants. One of the Heads would not be on the interviewing panel and stay in the staff-room making coffee for the candidates and have 'innocent' little chats about children and football, etc- and then pop into his office to phone up the info to the appointing team- saying he wanted this candidate, because .... young women who were intending to have children one day didn't get very far, footballers did, irrespective of experience or ability in teaching.

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  #77  
Old 27.06.2015, 11:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Just horrible that a brilliant scientist should lose so much for a silly remark. It wasn't even offensive.
The world is becoming ridiculous.
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Old 27.06.2015, 12:10
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Just horrible that a brilliant scientist should lose so much for a silly remark. It wasn't even offensive.
The world is becoming ridiculous.
And not in some theoretical discipline but mainly in cell division with massive gains made in cancer research.

My wife (a woman scientist) worked in the same field and knows Tim Hunt and says he is a bit prone to open his mouth before engaging his brain.

The people who think he should be made an outcast for one ill-considered remark should really look at themselves in the mirror and give themselves a reality check.
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Old 27.06.2015, 13:00
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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- making all collaboration discussions part of the work day instead of having them over a beer at the local pub that we cannot join because the babysitter eventually wants to leave,
This is not just about women. This is about family people in general.

When I was much younger and slaved away in a lab, the after work beer was THE time to discuss things. Reasons including

- the managers weren't there. So here was one of the few places you could have frank discussions about what was really happening rather than having to fake interpret results so they fitted management expectations. If you didn't take part, you lost your grounding in reality.
- for the same reason, intelligence observations could be discussed such as research by our competitors and their strategic decisions (and job opportunities there). In the world of management, all this was interpreted and censored away as they could be adopt a very Stalinist and everybody else is wrong and don't you dare even think the contrary type of thing.
- as it was mostly the girls and guys with kids and families who stayed away, it was about us young ones having the fun and we could steer away from all the lunchtime conversations that were centered on kids problems at school or cutting the grass, or even the sort of thing as "you're a smart engineer, here is my son's maths homework. It has lots of differential calculus and I can't help him, please do it for me, here and now".
- some of the older guys who had grown beyond that stage in their life came and joined in too, and readily stooped to our level of fun and jokes, only with their added experience and wealth of anecdotes. It was very much a cross-generational perspective that I now miss.
- one of the managers once accused us of being "took much a team" and thus impossible to manage.

So I don't this exclusion is about women. In fact many women participated in our beer round. It was at best an exclusion of a certain age stata who are called home by family commitments. That strata is also a time in their life that leadership differentiation occurs and future managers are picked out and brainwashed by their mentors, while less successful candidates stop having fun and double up the work effort in the hope of being selected nevertheless, and this naturally goes hand in hand with a breakdown of trust relationships.
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Old 27.06.2015, 13:12
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Just horrible that a brilliant scientist should lose so much for a silly remark. It wasn't even offensive.
The world is becoming ridiculous.
Perhaps his wife knows him best with her "he is a bit of a dinosaur", slightly more flattering than "idiot" as others have chosen. I can think of several people I hold in high respect for their contributions to academic scholarshiip (both science and humanities) who are just as likely to make comments unacceptable in today's so righteous society, but it isn't allowed to be human anymore. Woukd I much rather live in a world with all communication filtered through a SIRI type communicator? No thanks!

The Twitter community is heavily populated by younger generations that are not even aware of all the circumstances of what they are commenting on, and with one tap retweet someone else's unconsidered comment.

I think under the circumstances UCL acted in haste, and whoever forced it through likely thought it was a smooth way to put another aging academic out to pasture to make room for younger ones. I do think organisations need to keep the circulation of generations moving, for many reasons but not least the exchange of ideas. In this case UCL has drawn attention to all the wrong reasons, and set a nasty precedent for other institutions,
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