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  #81  
Old 27.06.2015, 14:00
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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He is an idiot for making the comment, but that is the price you pay for a modern society that places equal emphasis on public opinion as they do for educated opinion.

Joke or not, he's paid the price and will go down as a guy who contributed so much but will be remembered only for a 2 minute comment.

And no, I don't believe that organisations should kowtow to such public pressure/opinion, in what are basically not life-or-death situations. But it isn't the first time that twit-storms (pun intended) have led to such situations, but it is the first time that it has happened in academia AFAIK.

Welcome to the new world order. Big Brother hasn't got a patch on this...

Watch it all if you want, but cut to 1 min & "everyone's opinion is equal... my arse"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVVKAKWXcg
no no no, he will not be remembered for the comment in question but for what he accomplished. Those institutions simply OVERREACTED
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  #82  
Old 27.06.2015, 14:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

In my opinion, the only place where gender quotas would make any sense, is at the parliament, as both sexes should have equal and fair representation. Some countries actually have them, but most don't.

Clearly, in places like the academia or the top echelons of corporations, it makes absolutely no sense to have quotas or to decide who gets a promotion due to gender. The top jobs should always go to the best qualified people, period.

Funnily, I've never heard any people who advocate in favor of gender quotas, to even bring up the lack of male nurses or kindergarten teachers

Last edited by CuttySark; 27.06.2015 at 14:58. Reason: typos etc
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  #83  
Old 27.06.2015, 15:18
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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no no no, he will not be remembered for the comment in question but for what he accomplished. Those institutions simply OVERREACTED
Bollox. If we could track this I'd put money on it, I would bet on this happening a few years from now:

"Do you remember that guy, Sir Tim something or other... won a Nobel Prize?"

"Oh you mean the guy who got fired because he said women shouldn't be in science?"

"That's him..."
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  #84  
Old 27.06.2015, 15:55
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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In my opinion, the only place where gender quotas would make any sense, is at the parliament, as both sexes should have equal and fair representation. Some countries actually have them, but most don't.

Clearly, in places like the academia or the top echelons of corporations, it makes absolutely no sense to have quotas or to decide who gets a promotion due to gender. The top jobs should always go to the best qualified people, period.

Funnily, I've never heard any people who advocate in favor of gender quotas, to even bring up the lack of male nurses or kindergarten teachers
50-51% of the electorate is female, why a need for quotas?
There are better qualified politicians than others, and they get "promoted" by the people, I don't think there's that much difference, after all a state is also a "corporation" of the people that administer more or less things depending on the country. If there's a quota it means you're electing less qualified people only because of their gender, it doesn't make sense imho, there are male politicans who support things women would maybe want so the result will be the same.
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  #85  
Old 27.06.2015, 16:54
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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50-51% of the electorate is female, why a need for quotas?
That's exactly the reason why I can't take complaints about too few women in politics seriously. If women stuck together and if gender was indeed so important to them then we would have female majorities (or at least near-majorities) in parliaments.
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Old 27.06.2015, 17:08
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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In my opinion, the only place where gender quotas would make any sense, is at the parliament, as both sexes should have equal and fair representation. Some countries actually have them, but most don't
How would that work? Parliament is made up of those elected. You could have an equal number of male and female election candidates, but what happens if more of one gender wins? One of the "wrong sex" winners gets turfed out? Maybe only allow one gender to stand in each constituency?

A 50/50 split (including the "right" ratios by race, sexuality, disability, education level, religion and age) in all walks of life is a lovely ideal, but really is unworkable or grossly unfair.
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Old 27.06.2015, 17:49
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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This is not just about women. This is about family people in general.
Yes, but it is a fact though that most male PIs do not have to run to the krippe at 17:45 even if they are married with kids to other PIs. I have been told departmental seminars would not be moved earlier than 17:00 just 'for a few people'. Im not talking about informal discussions with 'the young ones', I am talking about interactions between lab heads that lead to collaborations and mutual grant applications.
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Old 27.06.2015, 21:52
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Perhaps his wife knows him best with her "he is a bit of a dinosaur", slightly more flattering than "idiot" as others have chosen. I can think of several people I hold in high respect for their contributions to academic scholarshiip (both science and humanities) who are just as likely to make comments unacceptable in today's so righteous society, but it isn't allowed to be human anymore. Woukd I much rather live in a world with all communication filtered through a SIRI type communicator? No thanks!

The Twitter community is heavily populated by younger generations that are not even aware of all the circumstances of what they are commenting on, and with one tap retweet someone else's unconsidered comment.

I think under the circumstances UCL acted in haste, and whoever forced it through likely thought it was a smooth way to put another aging academic out to pasture to make room for younger ones. I do think organisations need to keep the circulation of generations moving, for many reasons but not least the exchange of ideas. In this case UCL has drawn attention to all the wrong reasons, and set a nasty precedent for other institutions,
Actually, according to The Guardian she said he's "certainly not an old dinosaur" (just came across with this article)

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When Tim is not travelling for work, he does all the shopping and the cooking,” says Collins. “He is actually a great cook. Our daughters both prefer his meals to mine. And he is certainly not an old dinosaur. He just says silly things now and again.
It's so sweet of her. (of course that won't change a thing)

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...w-mary-collins
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  #89  
Old 27.06.2015, 22:18
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

I wonder how Benedict Cumberbatch is getting on these days?
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  #90  
Old 27.06.2015, 22:36
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

IMO (as a female scientist) this is much more disturbing than any of Hunt's comments.

"PLOS ONE ousts reviewer, editor after sexist peer-review storm"
http://news.sciencemag.org/scientifi...itter-response
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  #91  
Old 27.06.2015, 23:25
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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I wonder how Benedict Cumberbatch is getting on these days?
Watching The Imitation Game?
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  #92  
Old 28.06.2015, 00:31
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Sometimes gender quotas are necessary to break into the Old Boys Club's years of control, and I am not saying that one has to hire a doofus.

But if two candidates have similar qualifications, one is female and one is male, and the male is buddies with someone in the hiring committee, or the field is male dominated due to years of "it's a man's job", guess who's going to get the job. (After all, co-ed employment leads to problems like falling in love on the job or crying when criticized. Sorry, couldn't help it.)

Another idea to consider is this - role models. Let's say that some males are slighted a bit and some jobs go to females (just for the quota) until an certain equilibrium is reached. The employees have a "Take your child to work day" and the children see that both sexes are represented. The girls and boys will see, understand and accept that the opportunities are open to both, and both daughters and sons can dream to one day have a job just like mom's or dad's. How else can we overcome sexism?

But more about pay inequality below.
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  #93  
Old 28.06.2015, 00:47
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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I wonder how Benedict Cumberbatch is getting on these days?
He's busy with me this weekend, no women in the plot. Off topic.

I can't help but remind the world that the quota laws in Norway, so called 60/40 rule to avoid overrepresentation of a sex, is applied only in high status jobs where men are overrepresented, never ever in jobs where women are overrepresented (education offers many examples), or low status jobs where men are overrepresented.

Equality is linked to status. No denial possible. It's neither good or bad, but it is a shame that it is forgotten or kept quiet in discussions on the matter everywhere. Just sayin'...

NB: If you belong to the people who find sexist to find close to no men at the cash register in Coop and Migros, then this message was not meant for you.
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Old 28.06.2015, 01:40
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

That's most likely because at the low level there is already a 50/50 representation. We need to work on a balanced and fair representation at the middle to upper levels.
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Old 28.06.2015, 01:51
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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That's most likely because at the low level there is already a 50/50 representation. We need to work on a balanced and fair representation at the middle to upper levels.
No. There is no 50/50 representation at the cash register. Fight for more men there. Same on building sites, fight for more women there.

It is not about equality alone, it's actually about equality of high status. I am for equality everywhere, including women building football stadiums on big machines with all required technical vocational qualifications and men working as copy machine assistent with round apple behind as main qualification.
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Old 28.06.2015, 07:31
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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No. There is no 50/50 representation at the cash register. Fight for more men there. Same on building sites, fight for more women there.

It is not about equality alone, it's actually about equality of high status. I am for equality everywhere, including women building football stadiums on big machines with all required technical vocational qualifications and men working as copy machine assistent with round apple behind as main qualification.
The male/female representation in various jobs differs greatlly between different cultures/countries, whether that is due to more equal pay and opportunity, or the assumptions of certain jobs as "suitable" for either gender. The Scandinavian countries are, not surprisingly, far ahead Switzerland - not just in so-called higher level jobs, but in the day-to-day jobs that keep the population turning (education, childcare, supermarkets, transportation, et al).

I divide my time somewhat equally between Sweden and CH - at the supermarkets I frequent in Stockholm there are usually as many males as females at the tills, my encounters with hospital settings in both Sweden and Norway have found with with as many, or possibly more, male nurses and my children were in both (affordable!) daycare and schools where there were as many male teachers as female. One didn't think "oh, how nice to see a man".

This is not to imply that discussions around equal and fair wages do not exist in the Scandinavian countries, but they are far ahead in evening out the psychology that results in fair and equal opportunity.
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Old 28.06.2015, 09:09
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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..(affordable!) daycare...
Voila, the magic word. I think it is in its potential and consequences, (just like a decent, both gender geared parental leave), more important than quotas. What they are doing better than the rest, is forward thinking and realizing equality without including financial aspect is just empty politics. May look good on paper but won't change people's situation nor societal norms or unwillingness to stereotype. Cash does.
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Old 28.06.2015, 09:40
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Cash would definitely solve some issues like help prevent single parents living in poverty (usually women, bar divorced men who went through the cleaners, because they are more of an exception) and also old people living in poverty, with again mostly women, just because of longevity. I also don't think the low paid jobs are a 50/50 distribution, but with more women having this positions.

Sounds like Sweden offers not only a more equal job opportunity from low to high ranks, but also the necessary services that lead to economic independence.
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Old 28.06.2015, 11:42
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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The Scandinavian countries are, not surprisingly, far ahead Switzerland
Not as much as the legend says. It's the "other" Norwegian paradox. Each gender wanting to work with same gender is a strong trend even though equality of opportunity has been advocated and pushed for for a long time. There is a more balanced ratio male/female teachers in the school where I work in Basel than the two schools I was in Oslo. In private life, in families, yes, totally, Norway is far more advanced and men take care of babies, wash the bathroom and cook. But it does not really transfer into professional life. High status in Norway is on one side total equality and zero macho male identity but on the other side strong gender differences in social and professional choices. Some even say that scandinavian men are balancing soft values and hard values (traditional female/male image) not by segregating by genders but by segregation within their different parts of their own lives as men, so that family life is strongly soft value based and professional life hard value based for men. It is a kind of equality because there is no denial of soft values as such and no hierarchy of values based on genders, but there is definitely a strong culture of male identity in society "outbound" as opposed to "inbound" private life.

In other words, statistics about male/female professional choices are actually no indicators at all of gender issues. They are only status indicators within a culture. Comparing countries is impossible. Science is failing to develop the tools to handle the complexity of the issues with statistics and there is no chance to come to a meaningful conclusions based on scientific data in that field. That's tragic but in science, methodology is everything. There is no way around it.

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my encounters with hospital settings in both Sweden and Norway have found with with as many, or possibly more, male nurses
Wrong. It was just a subjective perception.
About nurses: http://forskning.no/sykepleievitensk.../05/italienske
Norway: 10% of nurses are men.
Italy: 25% of nurses are men.

But I agree totally with you about the cultural determination. But that's because social status is cultural.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 28.06.2015 at 12:16.
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Old 28.06.2015, 12:03
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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no no no, he will not be remembered for the comment in question but for what he accomplished. Those institutions simply OVERREACTED
Considering most people didn't know who he was before, I find this very unlikely.
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