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  #101  
Old 28.06.2015, 14:07
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Not as much as the legend says. It's the "other" Norwegian paradox. Each gender wanting to work with same gender is a strong trend even though equality of opportunity has been advocated and pushed for for a long time. There is a more balanced ratio male/female teachers in the school where I work in Basel than the two schools I was in Oslo. In private life, in families, yes, totally, Norway is far more advanced and men take care of babies, wash the bathroom and cook. But it does not really transfer into professional life. High status in Norway is on one side total equality and zero macho male identity but on the other side strong gender differences in social and professional choices. Some even say that scandinavian men are balancing soft values and hard values (traditional female/male image) not by segregating by genders but by segregation within their different parts of their own lives as men, so that family life is strongly soft value based and professional life hard value based for men. It is a kind of equality because there is no denial of soft values as such and no hierarchy of values based on genders, but there is definitely a strong culture of male identity in society "outbound" as opposed to "inbound" private life.

In other words, statistics about male/female professional choices are actually no indicators at all of gender issues. They are only status indicators within a culture. Comparing countries is impossible. Science is failing to develop the tools to handle the complexity of the issues with statistics and there is no chance to come to a meaningful conclusions based on scientific data in that field. That's tragic but in science, methodology is everything. There is no way around it.


Wrong. It was just a subjective perception.
About nurses: http://forskning.no/sykepleievitensk.../05/italienske
Norway: 10% of nurses are men.
Italy: 25% of nurses are men.

But I agree totally with you about the cultural determination. But that's because social status is cultural.
Isn't one of the critical elements towards creating a balanced life for both genders, determinate on creating balance in both professional and domestic rolls? When I read the above post it hints towards men giving in a bit, when actually, I think most males in Scandinavian countries (though Denmark is notoriously behind) welcome the chance to have both a job and an active role in looking after family. Their children are certainly benefiting by having parental role models who do more than just work or just look after house. Money is key here too though, as most salaries are not high enough to live comfortably off of if in a partnership with children. But this goes full-circle in that childcare is very affordable, and doesn't leave couples deciding who is going to put a career on hold, to possibly never returm to the job market while their skills and knowledge are stil viable.
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  #102  
Old 28.06.2015, 14:37
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Here is an interview with female scientist, Ms. Anne Elk, on an abstruse aspect of paleontology, where her special interest is the brontosaurus. Although she does not appear to handle the interview very well at the beginning, one cannot fail to be impressed by the clarity with which she articulates her theory, in a manner which even a lay person could easily grasp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYDiPizDIs
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  #103  
Old 29.06.2015, 00:42
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Clearly, in places like the academia or the top echelons of corporations, it makes absolutely no sense to have quotas or to decide who gets a promotion due to gender. The top jobs should always go to the best qualified people, period.
Sure, but the playing field is not even. What gender bias is, is that women with identical qualifications to men are rated and perceived differently in male-dominated fields [yes, it works the other way around too but that's not my personal problem ]. It has been shown that in academia the promotion chances of female candidates are decreased if they are assigned to an all-male review committee, whereas they are equivalent or nearly equivalent to men’s chances if they are assigned to a mixed-gender committee. Similar results have been reported in the private sector: men tend to underrate women’s job performances, whereas having more women in supervisory roles is associated with the increased hiring and promotion of other women. Therefore IMO the imperfect, but only possible solution to the underrepresentation of women is a transition period using quotas to put more women in hiring roles.

Why bother? More than half of PhDs in my field are obtained by women, but less than 20% of full professors at my institution in this field are female. If you do not believe that women suck at research the only conclusion is that at the moment there are many men in these positions who are less competent than the women who left for whatever reason. This is not only unfair but slows down progress and wastes resources. BTW this is not an issue of women victimized by men, unconcious bias against women also is found in women and self-selection plays a role too...

Last edited by mgosia; 29.06.2015 at 01:15.
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  #104  
Old 29.06.2015, 01:56
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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[yes, it works the other way around too but that's not my personal problem ].
This is the argument the machos use too. If it is valid for you, it must be valid for them too. You are for equality, remember?
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  #105  
Old 29.06.2015, 06:54
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Therefore IMO the imperfect, but only possible solution to the underrepresentation of women is a transition period using quotas to put more women in hiring roles.
So to protect women of the future you're willing to hurt a few men now, given that previous generations of men have benefited from discrimination. Hardly seems fair to the current generation of men - you're punishing them for someone else's crime.

Nor am I convinced that, given your own reference to women's own gender bias, that forcing the hiring of define numbers of women will lead to anything like a sustainable solution. Why exactly would enforcing an unjust solution, which demonstrably leads to discontent, drive people to act the same way by choice?

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Why bother? More than half of PhDs in my field are obtained by women, but less than 20% of full professors at my institution in this field are female. If you do not believe that women suck at research the only conclusion is that at the moment there are many men in these positions who are less competent than the women who left for whatever reason. This is not only unfair but slows down progress and wastes resources.
That's just... Wow. First, the fact that 50% of PhDs currently (you used the present tense) given out go to women in that field says nothing about whether that has always been the case; if not, then you would hardly expect the long process to full professorship to change overnight. Second, you can't make any meaningful analysis of that statement without knowing the reasons why those women left the field. Finally, who are you to judge what is a waste of resources? If someone wants to get a PhD and then go to do something other than become a professor, how can you possibly define that as a waste without even knowing what that person is doing?

Arguments like this are thoroughly unconvincing, and quotas in any form are by definition a discriminatory tool.

But back on topic, it would certainly be a lark if my posting these views got me fired from my job because they outraged a few internet denizens looking for their next battle!
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  #106  
Old 29.06.2015, 08:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

It isn't that men are hurt in this transition period. (What you imply is that the status quo is alright because it's women who are hurt, and as long as it isn't you it's all right by you, even if your mom, sister, or daughter have to pay the price to make you feel better about yourself, 'cause you are the man.)

It is that we, the adults of today, recognize that there is a problem that is only perpetuated if we don't address it, and as a result we are willing to come together to address it. There, put in a constructive light and you don't feel the "hurt".
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  #107  
Old 29.06.2015, 09:26
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Weitzman Institue in Israel promotes "Women in Science " they offer all kinds of sponsorship for women to enable them to do their research and at the same time continue to have a family - offering incentives for the husbands and help with the children!

Women think differently and that offers a whole new perspective for Science!
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  #108  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:04
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Why bother? More than half of PhDs in my field are obtained by women, but less than 20% of full professors at my institution in this field are female. If you do not believe that women suck at research the only conclusion is that at the moment there are many men in these positions who are less competent than the women who left for whatever reason. This is not only unfair but slows down progress and wastes resources. BTW this is not an issue of women victimized by men, unconcious bias against women also is found in women and self-selection plays a role too...
Not at all. There are many more possible reasons, one of which being that some women simply stop being active in their field for an extended period, which very often is the most productive one, to boot. If somebody took a multi-year break it would certainly lower their qualifications compared to somebody who was active during that time.

Your conclusion doesn't speak for your scientific qualification at all as you seem to let personal bias influence your logic.
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  #109  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:31
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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This is the argument the machos use too. If it is valid for you, it must be valid for them too. You are for equality, remember?
Smiley anyone? I am totally for more men in female-dominated fields. One of the few progressive aspects in this country is the number of men working at my daughter's daycare centre.

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So to protect women of the future you're willing to hurt a few men now, given that previous generations of men have benefited from discrimination.
At current rates, if we wait for natural progression to even things up we'll be here a long time, but I understand some people are happy with the status quo.

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you would hardly expect the long process to full professorship to change overnight. Second, you can't make any meaningful analysis of that statement without knowing the reasons why those women left the field.
I have to correct that the 20% (actually 18%) includes assistant and associate professors. Around 50% female PhDs have been stable for at least the last 10 years, these women should have moved at least to the assistant prof stage by now.
About the "reasons why" I am guessing you want to introduce the concept of "personal choice"? It is a well known phenomenon that this obscures actual barriers found by women in the workplace. For example, how can you speak of 'choice' when there clearly is a motherhood penalty and fatherhood bonus in the workplace?

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Finally, who are you to judge what is a waste of resources? If someone wants to get a PhD and then go to do something other than become a professor, how can you possibly define that as a waste without even knowing what that person is doing? Arguments like this are thoroughly unconvincing
Luckily many people in charge are convinced that diversity actually is a benefit for recruiting the best and brightest talent and the best schools have policies in place to promote it. Moreover, they know that diversification does not happen naturally but needs these targeted policies e.g. http://web.mit.edu/fnl/volume/184/hopkins.html
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  #110  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:38
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Your conclusion doesn't speak for your scientific qualification at all as you seem to let personal bias influence your logic.
Well, thanks, you are showing your bias too by using 'simply stop'. Why do they have to 'simply stop'? Why does this necessity not concern men? See also the cartoon posted by FunnyBone
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  #111  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:46
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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That's exactly the reason why I can't take complaints about too few women in politics seriously. If women stuck together and if gender was indeed so important to them then we would have female majorities (or at least near-majorities) in parliaments.
In the best of all possible worlds maybe. But the electoral system does not make it that easy.

Of course in a first past the post system, people will tend to vote for the candidate representing their party of choice and gender won't be high on the list of criteria.

In proportional representation, the lists are assembled by party functionaries and due to the arithmetic the guys they stick at the top of the list have a far higher probability of getting in than those further down.

So if you want more women in parliament, the parties are going to have to make the first move and put up more women candidates in places where they actually stand a chance.
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  #112  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:57
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Yes, but it is a fact though that most male PIs do not have to run to the krippe at 17:45 even if they are married with kids to other PIs. I have been told departmental seminars would not be moved earlier than 17:00 just 'for a few people'. Im not talking about informal discussions with 'the young ones', I am talking about interactions between lab heads that lead to collaborations and mutual grant applications.
Surely it's something every married couple need to arrange internally, who runs to the Krippe to pick up the kids, just as they need to arrange who climbs onto the roof to fix the blocked gutter.

If wives are unable to explain to husbands that it's not automatically the woman's job to run to the Krippe, in what way is this the fault of their managers?
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  #113  
Old 29.06.2015, 12:03
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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In proportional representation, the lists are assembled by party functionaries and due to the arithmetic the guys they stick at the top of the list have a far higher probability of getting in than those further down.

So if you want more women in parliament, the parties are going to have to make the first move and put up more women candidates in places where they actually stand a chance. .

Not true. The correlation is more people that have a good chance to get elected are at the top of the list. The SPV had a list where the second place was filled by a new coming woman. She had absolutely zero chances. Did worse than any other of the already known woman on the list.
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  #114  
Old 29.06.2015, 12:09
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Not true. The correlation is more people that have a good chance to get elected are at the top of the list. The SPV had a list where the second place was filled by a new coming woman. She had absolutely zero chances. Did worse than any other of the already known woman on the list.
Yes, but that was an exception. She was already extremely popular. I'm not seeing much evidence of "no name" candidates being voted up because of gender.
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  #115  
Old 29.06.2015, 12:11
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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in what way is this the fault of their managers?
Unwillingness to organize the working day in a way that does not penalize parents in general and mothers in particular / in practice
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  #116  
Old 29.06.2015, 14:24
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Unwillingness to organize the working day in a way that does not penalize parents in general and mothers in particular / in practice
Not good enough. Norway organized the whole country around family care and women still strongly tend to chose women dominated fields to work which happens to be lower paid, which creates the illusion of accentuated inequality. The dynamics of each society is different. Statistics are totally meaningless and everybody just hold on their beliefs without looking at the whole reality because it is just too complex to apprehend fully.
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  #117  
Old 29.06.2015, 14:47
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Many people defending Tim Hunt state that he was making a joke.

FYI: He says he "just meant to be honest".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_7549858.html
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  #118  
Old 29.06.2015, 15:00
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Many people defending Tim Hunt state that he was making a joke.

FYI: He says he "just meant to be honest".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_7549858.html

Old news, old report, comments out of context. Although there is a level on honesty in it :P
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  #119  
Old 29.06.2015, 15:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Maybe we should change the title of the thread to "Do men belong in Science (or anywhere where men discriminate against women just because)?".

See how those of you who discriminate like them apples.
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  #120  
Old 29.06.2015, 15:59
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Maybe we should change the title of the thread to "Do men belong in Science (or anywhere where men discriminate against women just because)?".

See how those of you who discriminate like them apples.
hahaha! Of course not!

Men fall in love with their TA's and perform poorly in labs, they do the work for females co-students in exchange for attention (limiting the females ability to learn on their own!), they wear colognes and hair gel which contaminate results. And of course, they do not know how to express and deal with emotions!

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