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  #121  
Old 29.06.2015, 16:10
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

More news - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...testimony.html

*I know, I know it is the DailyMail*
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  #122  
Old 29.06.2015, 16:40
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

And they found a woman, who will be burned at the stake, just to show other women what happens when they dare stick their necks out to point out the ugly truth. Surely that's what it smells like (character assassination).

If the truth is pointed out by a lowlife, it is still the truth. If a high-ranked person discriminates, it is still discrimination.
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  #123  
Old 29.06.2015, 16:43
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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And they found a man, who will be burned at the stake, just to show other men what happens when they dare stick their necks out to point out the ugly truth. Surely that's what it smells like (character assassination).
Changes mine. You *were* referring to Sir Hunt, right?
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  #124  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:00
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

"If women are put off science by an offhand remark made by an old man, how committed were they in the first place?"

from a Sky News debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCaEO6ue_io
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  #125  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:06
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Old news, old report, comments out of context. Although there is a level on honesty in it :P
I don't understand. He went on the BBC and said he meant the part about the girls and was just trying to be honest. How is that old, out of context news? After that interview he also said to a newspaper that he never had a chance to tell his side of the story.

More likely, when he realised the backlash of his words he wished he had told the BBC that it was all a joke.

I'm not saying he deserved what he got, just pointing out that by his own admission, he was just trying to be truthful. So no need to defend him by saying he was joking.
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  #126  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:07
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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And they found a woman, who will be burned at the stake, just to show other women what happens when they dare stick their necks out to point out the ugly truth. Surely that's what it smells like (character assassination).

If the truth is pointed out by a lowlife, it is still the truth. If a high-ranked person discriminates, it is still discrimination.
But she is known to manipulate the truth. She deserves to be burnt at the stake just like Tim Hunt was.
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  #127  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:18
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Corbets, that was too funny. But are you saying that the whole discrimination thing is just fantasy? Those remarks resonated with a whole lot of people, men AND women, I should point out. Maybe a "once too many times" scenario, and while he isn't the worst offender out there, he is a very prominent person, who influences many people.

Truth is truth, but she should be burned for whatever she lied for, and not for starting a storm against Tim Hunt.
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  #128  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:22
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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I don't understand.......

I realized that

It's outdated, because in the 3 weeks since that was published there have been many more articles expanding on the topic with new relevant information. Many of such links posted on this very thread, reasonably suggesting that the comments in your link are taken far out of context.

Yes it was a joke, yes it was truthful-the two are not mutually exclusive.

He used truthful statements, from his experience -albeit not politically correct and somewhat sexist and ignorant, then made it into a joke by linking to the opposite theme and conclusion.

And added and end comment which would anger the PC ageism movement as well!
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  #129  
Old 29.06.2015, 17:25
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Science (or anywhere where men discriminate against women just because).
Forum debates belong to the realm of logic so I would appreciate some proof to substantiate your above claim.
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  #130  
Old 29.06.2015, 18:10
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Forum debates belong to the realm of logic so I would appreciate some proof to substantiate your above claim.
Google (or another search engine) is your friend, too, my friend. I promise you that you can find logical information (research articles) about illogical discrimination in many fields with just a few clicks. A few of the fields are life sciences, engineering, computer science, gaming. Does anyone care to add to the list?
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  #131  
Old 29.06.2015, 18:43
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Well, thanks, you are showing your bias too by using 'simply stop'. Why do they have to 'simply stop'? Why does this necessity not concern men? See also the cartoon posted by FunnyBone
Google the definiton of bias. It's not hard to understand why you, who claims to do scientific work, don't get the resources you seem to think you deserve.
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  #132  
Old 29.06.2015, 18:49
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Google (or another search engine) is your friend, too, my friend. I promise you that you can find logical information (research articles) about illogical discrimination in many fields with just a few clicks. A few of the fields are life sciences, engineering, computer science, gaming. Does anyone care to add to the list?
Google just told me the contrary of what you are claiming. People are now so desperate to hire women in science that there is now a systematic bias against men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCaEO6ue_io

In addition, asking someone questioning you about your sources to google them implies that you do not actually have the said sources. You should be better prepared when making wild statements in a public forum or you shall be ignored.
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  #133  
Old 29.06.2015, 18:58
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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That's most likely because at the low level there is already a 50/50 representation. We need to work on a balanced and fair representation at the middle to upper levels.
Yaaay!! Let's work hard together to bring 50-50 gender participation in the following occupations too:
coal miners
garbage collectors
deep sea fishermen
electrical power line installers
roughnecks (work the oil drill)
auto repair mechanics
roofers
heating
air conditioning
refrigeration mechanics
metal fabricators
aircraft maintenance and service
firefighters
construction workers
patrol officers

When do you want to start?
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  #134  
Old 29.06.2015, 19:13
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Yaaay!! Let's work hard together to bring 50-50 gender participation in the following occupations too:
coal miners
garbage collectors
deep sea fishermen
electrical power line installers
roughnecks (work the oil drill)
auto repair mechanics
roofers
heating
air conditioning
refrigeration mechanics
metal fabricators
aircraft maintenance and service
firefighters
construction workers
patrol officers

When do you want to start?
I completely agree! I worked at a coal mine in central British Columbia for most of my summers as a student. My first summer I shoveled coal dust sludge off the conveyor room floor onto the belt in a tiny dark room many stories underground. At the end of the day you could only see my eyes and teeth. Hard freakin' job but amazing pay. Got me through my undergrad without loans. I seriously considered staying to go on full time (sometimes wish I had). There were lots of women there (though not near 50% yet). Being a woman by no means hampered by ability to be a good worker in such a field - you just have to be fine with the grit and the risk. I believe that many would be willing if they only knew that there is a place (and a living wage) there for them.

Slowly, I believe that more will gravitate to these (often well paid) careers, just as I hope more men will gravitate towards more female saturated fields (we need more men teachers!!). I know I will be ensuring my daughters are aware of these potential fields as well as more "traditional' ones.

Then again, it could be you posted this with no actual desire that women ever try to enter these fields en masse. I have seen this argument before... you know: "why do men have to do all the dirty, hard and dangerous work?" while at the same time "you gals just don't belong doing this work, and don't you dare try to take our jobs away." Even if that is so, your suggestion is a good one.

Last edited by M_McPoyle; 29.06.2015 at 19:24.
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  #135  
Old 29.06.2015, 19:30
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

That program was aired to assuage Tim and CO. Facts, baby, not opinions nor a smearing campaign, right? Or are you writing a paper and need an extra hand with research? Should I tally up the numbers for you, too? These just in CH, and only the board of directors, ending with a wage comparison.

http://www.roche.com/about/governanc..._directors.htm

https://www.novartis.com/about-us/wh...oard-directors

http://m12.migros.ch/en/cooperative-...rs/composition

https://www.credit-suisse.com/es/en/...directors.html

http://new.abb.com/about/abb-in-brie...d-of-directors

http://www.swatchgroup.com/group_pro...d_of_directors

http://www.syngenta.com/global/corpo...directors.aspx
http://www.syngenta.com/global/corpo...committee.aspx

Monthly wage comparison by gender for year 2012, maybe with a few extra clicks I could have found the 2014, too.
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...eschlecht.html
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  #136  
Old 29.06.2015, 19:40
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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That program was aired to assuage Tim and CO. Facts, baby, not opinions nor a smearing campaign, right? Or are you writing a paper and need an extra hand with research? Should I tally up the numbers for you, too?
Your condescending tone totally ruined the point you were making. You seem to be proving Tim right when he implied that women get overly emotional. Stick to facts next time and keep bitchiness out of it.
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  #137  
Old 29.06.2015, 19:46
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

She did.
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  #138  
Old 29.06.2015, 20:03
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Condescending? More like amused. I prefer to call it "dissemination of information", and calling it like it is. Did you actually watch that thing? It started with 2 female characters, the interviewer and the interviewee. The interviewee touts loudly how the idea that discrimination even exists?! Maybe in her lab it doesn't, but she is a woman, too. I haven't finished it, so maybe I missed something crucial to the idea that it's all just an illusion? Maybe there are thousands of male and female faculty and staff, board of directors, heads of departments, heads of smaller groups within those departments, who, by the end of the program, made a stand WITH PROOF that this is nonsense?

Come on. I gave you some statistical data, like clear numbers of board of directors, no deviations, no means or medians, no halves or quarters nothing hard.

For the sake of the debate, I am trying to come up with logical and respectable arguments pro status quo. It sounds ridiculous.

1. The reason why men receive/deserve more pay is...
2. Mostly men (or only men) can/must reach the top echelons of this company, because...
3....
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  #139  
Old 29.06.2015, 20:42
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Condescending? More like amused. I prefer to call it "dissemination of information", and calling it like it is. Did you actually watch that thing? It started with 2 female characters, the interviewer and the interviewee. The interviewee touts loudly how the idea that discrimination even exists?! Maybe in her lab it doesn't, but she is a woman, too. I haven't finished it, so maybe I missed something crucial to the idea that it's all just an illusion? Maybe there are thousands of male and female faculty and staff, board of directors, heads of departments, heads of smaller groups within those departments, who, by the end of the program, made a stand WITH PROOF that this is nonsense?

Come on. I gave you some statistical data, like clear numbers of board of directors, no deviations, no means or medians, no halves or quarters nothing hard.

For the sake of the debate, I am trying to come up with logical and respectable arguments pro status quo. It sounds ridiculous.

1. The reason why men receive/deserve more pay is...
2. Mostly men (or only men) can/must reach the top echelons of this company, because...
3....
What did you want to achieve by listing the CEOs of big companies? You seem to be confusing correlation with causation. While the correlation between being male and having a higher salary is easy to see, it is far more difficult to prove causation. Predictably, you jumped on the correlation and did not even attempt to argue for the causation. Not even top economists have been able to find the cause of the gender pay divide (i.e. they cannot prove that it is gender-related) so I'm sorry that I have no confidence in your arguments. Here are some serious articles on it if you wish to inform yourself better. Please also grab a book on the fundamentals of logical reasoning; it might be of help

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christ...b_2073804.html

http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-m...-will-not-die/ (jump to myth 5)

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...gender_pay_gap
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  #140  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:10
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

So to you, the media (in this case, published opinions) have more weight than the reality of the numbers.

After I'm done with a little project, I would like to dig a bit more into actual numbers by gender per company, if they are published anywhere. Correlation and causation, shmorelations and shmosation. Those numbers show you facts, and it seems you don't like them. FACTS ARE FACTS. The causes are voiced, by the likes of Tim Hunt, from high up those boards of directors, down to within the family unit, and back, you pick.
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