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  #141  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:19
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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FACTS ARE FACTS.
Don't ever write that in a philosophy essay... Facts are the belief you have in the methodology used to reach them. The belief part is essential, because what ever the data, there is no conclusion without interpretation. This is the stage most people underestimate. Therefore, facts are MADE facts. That you can write in a philosophy essay.
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  #142  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:24
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Thank goodness this isn't philosophy, heh? I did ace that though, so I do understand the nuances.
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  #143  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:25
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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So to you, the media (in this case, published opinions) have more weight than the reality of the numbers.

After I'm done with a little project, I would like to dig a bit more into actual numbers by gender per company, if they are published anywhere. Correlation and causation, shmorelations and shmosation. Those numbers show you facts, and it seems you don't like them. FACTS ARE FACTS. The causes are voiced, by the likes of Tim Hunt, from high up those boards of directors, down to within the family unit, and back, you pick.
Those "opinions" are backed by "FACTS". You just need to click on the links Is that too hard for you? You are the one not concerned by facts. Prove to me using facts that "the causes are voiced, by the likes of Tim Hunt, from high up those boards of directors, down to within the family unit, and back, you pick." For once, I thought I was not dealing with a deluded feminist frothing at the mouth with righteous outrage at the supposed 'patriarchy' but you are proving me wrong so far. Produce facts my friend, not delusions.
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  #144  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:34
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

What a great turn for the debate - to resort to name calling. That will get you very far in life.
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  #145  
Old 29.06.2015, 21:45
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Same old, same old Funnybone. Men who think that when they are losing an argument presented with very real figures (call them fact or not)- just thing they can call you a 'raving feminist' and makes those figures disappear.

21.10.14 I quote you 'Your tactic: can't attack the argumentation, so attack the person.' - so pot, kettle- your posts in the past have made no secrets of your bitterness against women (stay single rant)... so not sure what made you so bitter against women, but it does make your argumentation a bit suspect.

I am not sure quotas is the way to go- but anyone who says nowadays that gender inequality in the workplace does not exist anymore, really needs to spend a bit more time looking at the figures Funnybone presented, and do a bit more research. And tell their wives/partners that they will give up the career ladder for a few years and bring up the kids

My mother was born in 1915, and her mother would not let her read, lest it put ideas about equality in her head! Maybe you are too young to remember massive inequality of education and opportunities for women. FFS women only got the vote in CH in 1971! My mother was the only mum I knew as a child who had a very interesting job, but even then, she was the secretary and translator to the big man. At my grandfather's factory, that closed in the early 50s- there was not a single woman in management, and even though the workshops were female only (textiles) only men were floor managers. My mum was one of 2 mums in the early 50s here who drove and had a car (a 2cv ) in our large village - and the only mum who had travelled and studied abroad.

In 1985- at a parents' evening, the Head of Science said he didn't respond to daughter numero uno putting her hand up to answer, or to ask a question, because 'physics' is not for girls! (she got an A for GCSE, same for chemistry and maths).

Last edited by Odile; 29.06.2015 at 22:34.
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  #146  
Old 29.06.2015, 22:39
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Same old, same old Funnybone. Men who think that when they are losing an argument presented with very real figures (call them fact or not)- just thing they can call you a 'raving feminist' and makes those figures disappear.

21.10.14 I quote you 'Your tactic: can't attack the argumentation, so attack the person.' - so pot, kettle- your posts in the past have made no secrets of your bitterness against women (stay single rant)... so not sure what made you so bitter against women, but it does make your argumentation a bit suspect.

I am not sure quotas is the way to go- but anyone who says nowadays that gender inequality in the workplace does not exist anymore, really needs to spend a bit more time looking at the figures Funnybone presented, and do a bit more research. And tell their wives/partners that they will give up the career ladder for a few years and bring up the kids

My mother was born in 1915, and her mother would not let her read, lest it put ideas about equality in her head! Maybe you are too young to remember massive inequality of education and opportunities for women. FFS women only got the vote in CH in 1971! My mother was the only mum I knew as a child who had a very interesting job, but even then, she was the secretary and translator to the big man. At my grandfather's factory, that closed in the early 50s- there was not a single woman in management, and even though the workshops were female only (textiles) only men were floor managers. My mum was one of 2 mums in the early 50s here who drove and had a car (a 2cv ) - and the only mum who had travelled and studied abroad.

In 1985- at a parents' evening, the Head of Science said he didn't respond to daughter numero uno putting her hand up to answer, or to ask a question, because 'physics' is not for girls! (she got an A for GCSE, same for chemistry and maths).
Odile, have *you* read the links presented? I suspect, as usual, that you haven't understood the thread fully. The links present statistics. Not causes. Not solutions. There is a gap, and we're all aware that historical bias (and probably some present bias) caused the situation.

Let me summarize for you:
What I personally pointed out was that two wrongs do not make a right. What some of the other posters are doing is calling out a poster's smug, self-righteous attitude and poking fun at him/her/it. What that poster is doing is... presenting more smugness, while reposting things that no one is debating. What you are doing is posting anecdotes as if they were facts.

And none of it changes the world, because the truth of the matter is, the Internet is as irrelevant a place as you can imagine for serious debate in most cases. Flame wars and social justice warriors, sure, we can do that, but change doesn't happen on or because of anonymous Internet posting.

Let this thread die already, people!
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  #147  
Old 29.06.2015, 22:48
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

The big question not everybody agrees on because the tools to quantify it scientifically are just not working is:
How much of the pay gap is due to choices made by women at different stages of education, identity development and career strategy?

I don't have the answer either, the topic is too complex for current research methodology. They try their best, some say they manage quite well to come to convincing conclusions, others insiste that it's not good enough and findings are inconclusive. More work needed.

In the meantime, I invite people to make the link with social status questions.
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  #148  
Old 29.06.2015, 23:01
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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The links present statistics. Not causes. Not solutions. There is a gap, and we're all aware that historical bias (and probably some present bias) caused the situation
Totally agree- where did I say anything to the contrary?

What you are doing is posting anecdotes as if they were facts.

Anecdotes of the reality of my mother's generation, and mine to some extent, and even my daughters'- and they do represent the facts as I and they experienced them- so to me, a lot more than anecdotes- even if they do not represent academic research!

How patronising to say 'I do not understand the issues'. I have played the supporting rôle to my OH all my life- and took on all the responsibility for the children, the house and everything else. Willingly and without bitterness- although I did manage to get back to uni and forge my own career after the girls started school, with a lot of hard work. Daughter managed to get to the top of hers by accepting that she could only do so and be a mother, by making lots of other sacrifices - it's been hugely difficult at times, and she totally understands why so many very bright women give up- because it is just too hard. She does not believe in quotas, and does think that women can often play the vicitim card and be their own worst enemies- and then rant about it.

If you have a wife/partner and children, did you offer to stay at home to bring up the kids so your wife/partner could stay on the career ladder- whilst you stepped back? Knowing that catching up after a few years would be almost impossible in your field?

Last edited by MusicChick; 30.06.2015 at 10:27. Reason: fixed quote
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  #149  
Old 29.06.2015, 23:06
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Some people mistake history for anecdotes - I don't know what's so funny about having severely limited opportunities, or intellectual achievements stolen from you. It used to be that the elderly were looked up to for answers, not derided.

There is plenty of room for men in the feminists ranks. I would be satisfied when the work the women do as caregivers for their kids plus as caregiver for the elderly is either paid for or not taken into account at all during pension calculations. Of course, this in addition to equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunities in leadership roles. Easy, see?
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  #150  
Old 29.06.2015, 23:17
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Talking about anecdotes- it would be interesting to find out how many female members of EF followed their men here for their career, and vice-versa.

The 'Elderly' FunnyBone- who on earth are you alluding to ???? (lol)
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  #151  
Old 29.06.2015, 23:36
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Google the definiton of bias. It's not hard to understand why you, who claims to do scientific work, don't get the resources you seem to think you deserve.
Before becoming condescending, or insulting really, you might want to reconsider your assumptions why (and even if) women 'simply leave' the working place for extended periods of time based on data and not your mere opinion. When you start out with a high achieving, highly educated pool of PhDs that is gender balanced and some of the best women have to leave academia because of lack of good affordable childcare, unnecessary rigidity during their early career, bias against them, self-selection or whatever reason actually as I already mentioned, it is a fact that less talented men who do not face these obstructions will occupy positions they would not be considered for had these women been able to stay
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  #152  
Old 30.06.2015, 09:53
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Odile, have *you* read the links presented? I suspect, as usual, that you haven't understood the thread fully. The links present statistics. Not causes. Not solutions. There is a gap, and we're all aware that historical bias (and probably some present bias) caused the situation.

Let me summarize for you:
What I personally pointed out was that two wrongs do not make a right. What some of the other posters are doing is calling out a poster's smug, self-righteous attitude and poking fun at him/her/it. What that poster is doing is... presenting more smugness, while reposting things that no one is debating. What you are doing is posting anecdotes as if they were facts.

And none of it changes the world, because the truth of the matter is, the Internet is as irrelevant a place as you can imagine for serious debate in most cases. Flame wars and social justice warriors, sure, we can do that, but change doesn't happen on or because of anonymous Internet posting.

Let this thread die already, people!
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The pot calling the kettle black.....Follow your own advice then.
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  #153  
Old 30.06.2015, 09:58
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

Has anything important happened in the last 5 pages? Or are we still stuck on whether all women should be "allowed" to become scientists or only the ugly ones so that the "proper" scientists don't get distracted?
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  #154  
Old 30.06.2015, 10:09
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Has anything important happened in the last 5 pages? Or are we still stuck on whether all women should be "allowed" to become scientists or only the ugly ones so that the "proper" scientists don't get distracted?
Why, a proper scientist wouldn't even distinguish between the pretty and the ugly ones...
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Old 30.06.2015, 10:31
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Why, a proper scientist wouldn't even distinguish between the pretty and the ugly ones...
And how cool are talking frogs?
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  #156  
Old 30.06.2015, 10:32
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Has anything important happened in the last 5 pages?
Well DK,
Since the start of play, we have discovered that apparently the scientific community, in all its enlightened glory, has been unable to solve the riddle of global warming nor self police itself WRT gender equality and biological drive, especially at the PhD level.
Additionally, the mean cost of child care seems to be unusually high near labs with PhD's which of course leads to male PhD's being unworthy of their position and a predilection to steal the work of their female counterparts.
That is Ok though, because a few EF'rs have gazed into the souls of all men and women and can answer the OP's original question on our behalf without self doubt or sense of humility.

I think that sums it up.
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  #157  
Old 30.06.2015, 11:19
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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The big question not everybody agrees on because the tools to quantify it scientifically are just not working is:
How much of the pay gap is due to choices made by women at different stages of education, identity development and career strategy?

I don't have the answer either, the topic is too complex for current research methodology. They try their best, some say they manage quite well to come to convincing conclusions, others insiste that it's not good enough and findings are inconclusive. More work needed.

In the meantime, I invite people to make the link with social status questions.
I know several women in their mid to late 40s who are doing pretty well career wise, own their own companies, drive expensive sports cars, vacation fancy places and have more cash to burn than any of my male friends. But they tell me they are unhappy in their private lives because they regret putting their careers ahead and now miss not having family or children.

Statitics are just an aggregate of anecdotes. But some people regret making one choice and others regret making just the opposite choice. The world is just an unhappy place because of choice and we have to live with it.
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  #158  
Old 30.06.2015, 12:24
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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I know several women in their mid to late 40s who are doing pretty well career wise, own their own companies, drive expensive sports cars, vacation fancy places and have more cash to burn than any of my male friends. But they tell me they are unhappy in their private lives because they regret putting their careers ahead and now miss not having family or children.

Statitics are just an aggregate of anecdotes. But some people regret making one choice and others regret making just the opposite choice. The world is just an unhappy place because of choice and we have to live with it.
So in conclusions, Tim Hunt is to blame for the women with good lives (own company, nice car, vaca house, tonsa cash) being unhappy because they chose to put their careers ahead of raising a family. And thus he should be fired, stripped of his position and have his life ruined.

I think that is the summary of this thread
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Old 30.06.2015, 12:41
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Men who think that when they are losing an argument presented with very real figures (call them fact or not)
The figures can be mostly explained by the individual choices made by women and the remaining discrepancy has not been proven to be related to gender discrimination. What are you even going on about? Those figures mean nothing but, of course, rabid feminists are not prepared to see this and use them deliberately to attack an imaginary patriarchy. It is you who seems bitter! Penis envy is bad for you, you know?
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Old 30.06.2015, 12:44
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Re: Do women belong in Science?

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Why, a proper scientist wouldn't even distinguish between the pretty and the ugly ones...
I thought you didn't like stereo-typing?
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