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  #41  
Old 03.07.2015, 05:38
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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What business is it of any British police force to know or care about where a British citizen chooses to go abroad?
None. But it is the job of the British police to prevent crimes. If any resident goes abroad to train and fight with terrorists is this something they should care about. Let's be honest about the side-track discussion: nobody cares about their kids, neither in Luton or Syria. What people are scared of are radicalized Muslims coming back from combat and continuing their Jihad in Europe.

I honestly don't know UK law and can't be bothered about it, but given that this is not a UK problem but a European one can tell you what measures the German parliament took:
- it is by now a crime to train with terrorists. Like most formal crimes is even the attempt to do so worth an arrest. This is a considerable cut in civil liberty as it means that people could be arrested at a German airport on their way to a "vacation" in Turkey if there is only enough reason to question them weather they might plan to continue their trip on to Syria.
- fighting for a foreign power has been a crime for a very long time to prevent mercenaries.
- the parliament is currently debating the possibilities to strip people of their citizenship as long as they have another passport. (it is not possible to turn them into "stateless" people according to international law... so if you want to become a terrorist better get rid of that other non-EU passport now.)

While I personally am all for civil liberty and rather critical of police... I'll be honest: there are several thousand men and women with European passports fighting in Syria right now. They are all nutters to begin with and only God knows how screwed up they will be once they come back. It's basically the story of Rambo 1 multiplied by several thousands. Given how many very well trained and mentally stable soldiers suffer from post traumatic stress - that will be a major challenge for the various European countries they are from and especially the collaboration between them. I don't have the perfect solution either, but just sitting in my armchair and telling everyone that extremists should have freedom of movement is not enough. I personally think that it is alright to change the laws to strip people of their citizenship if they have been proven to be active fighters for ISIS. If they want their holy state can they just stay there and don't need to come back to the European health care system once they got their share of war and want their wounds treated.

Give how the UK police deals with one guy with a machete... imagine what happens if the guy was a trained fighter with an assault rifle instead:
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  #42  
Old 03.07.2015, 10:21
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

The recent slew of stories about how young girls and families are crossing over to Syria and leaving behind their anxious family and friends made me wonder how the authorities will deal with these people, if they are found.

On one hand, we have disillusioned folks who made the conscious choice to join a violent organisation, with the clear intent to cause harm to other people. But I think on the other hand, we have people who got brain washed to think that joining ISIS is their duty. We are talking about young people, who are impressionable, easily manipulated.

I don't give a flying f*** to the first bunch of folks mentioned above. But I don't know where I stand with regards to the second group who are impressionable. I liken it to young kids getting hooked on drugs, and unable to come back to a healthier lifestyle, despite having a loving family. Do we help them, or do we let them rot?

This is a new dilemma for the West, I think.
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  #43  
Old 03.07.2015, 10:30
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

It is well known that ISIS will kill anyone leaving their camps. The simple ones that have been persuaded to go, will end up married to an ISIS fighter, or will be used as "cannon fodder" and will die fairly quickly.

Anyone that does escape is arrested when arriving in the west, and has some difficult questions to answer, before being charged with aiding terrorism, and being imprisoned.

Sadly, there are few alternatives.
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  #44  
Old 03.07.2015, 11:00
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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But I don't know where I stand with regards to the second group who are impressionable. I liken it to young kids getting hooked on drugs, and unable to come back to a healthier lifestyle, despite having a loving family. Do we help them, or do we let them rot?
You can't compare the two. Getting hooked on smack is not the same as getting hooked on cutting peoples heads off.
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  #45  
Old 03.07.2015, 11:37
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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It is well known that ISIS will kill anyone leaving their camps. The simple ones that have been persuaded to go, will end up married to an ISIS fighter, or will be used as "cannon fodder" and will die fairly quickly.

Anyone that does escape is arrested when arriving in the west, and has some difficult questions to answer, before being charged with aiding terrorism, and being imprisoned.

Sadly, there are few alternatives.
I think you are right that most of them will be unable to get out. But it will be interesting to find out how the West will deal with those who do manage to escape. I think of the 3 East London girls who travelled to Syria, two of them were 15 at the time they went to Syria. If they are found (and that is a pretty big IF), how will these two minors be treated? Charged as adults? Charged as children?

I don't have an answer to all these questions, btw, just wonder how those who managed to escape will be treated by the West. I am usually not that bleeding liberal, but something about the Luton family who travelled with young kids and elderly parent, really made me wonder about the big aftermath for those who are unable to make a conscious decision.

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You can't compare the two. Getting hooked on smack is not the same as getting hooked on cutting peoples heads off.
But I am talking about those who make a bad decision in thinking going to Syria is the place for them, only realising that they got themselves in deep sh*t. These kids are being sold a lifestyle.
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  #46  
Old 03.07.2015, 11:45
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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It is well known that ISIS will kill anyone leaving their camps.
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Nach Angaben des bayerischen Innenministeriums sind allein aus dem Freistaat bislang schon etwa 50 Islamisten nach Syrien gereist, um sich dort an den Kämpfen zu beteiligen. Mindestens drei sind mutmaßlich ums Leben gekommen, 20 sind inzwischen wieder in Bayern.
According to the second link below does the Bavarian government believe that about 50 guys went to IS from this one German state alone out of which at least 3 died and 20 (!) are back in Germany. That's hardly "anyone" and if you could deduct anything from that number across Europe are we talking about hundreds already today.

Some examples

1) a gentleman from Frankfurt was at court already. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/f...rieg-1.2130397

2) a gentleman from Munich was at court as well. http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...d_4418405.html

3) there were more ex IS guys on German television - not sure why they did not went to court, probably because they left already at the indoctrination camp before actually getting trained to be a fighter...


Here is an article on two Syrians (!) who left IS because "the influx of foreigners was too much, they were too radical and had no understanding of Islam at all"... http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-995006.html
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Last edited by Treverus; 03.07.2015 at 11:55.
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  #47  
Old 03.07.2015, 12:27
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, SOHR, said it is expected they will “face the same fate of more than 120 ISIS fighters who were executed in October, November, and December of 2014, after they tried to escape.” (Obviously a few will succeed, but many die in the attempt)

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...a-monitor.html
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  #48  
Old 03.07.2015, 12:45
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

I honestly don't worry too much about the well being of ISIS fighters... but I genuinely believe that having some thousand ex guerrillas running around the EU once this conflict is over will be a time bomb. We'll have for years violent crimes where the articles will read something in the line of "the defendant is pleading for diminished responsibility based on his psychological problems and traumas from his time in Syria".
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  #49  
Old 07.07.2015, 16:11
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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According to the second link below does the Bavarian government believe that about 50 guys went to IS from this one German state alone out of which at least 3 died and 20 (!) are back in Germany. That's hardly "anyone" and if you could deduct anything from that number across Europe are we talking about hundreds already today.

Some examples

1) a gentleman from Frankfurt was at court already. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/f...rieg-1.2130397

2) a gentleman from Munich was at court as well. http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...d_4418405.html

3) there were more ex IS guys on German television - not sure why they did not went to court, probably because they left already at the indoctrination camp before actually getting trained to be a fighter...


Here is an article on two Syrians (!) who left IS because "the influx of foreigners was too much, they were too radical and had no understanding of Islam at all"... http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-995006.html
Seem to be plenty going from Switzerland too; although they don't seem to live long.
There was an article in the paper yesterday about a world champion Thai boxer from Winterthur who joined IS recently and is now believed to be dead according to his brother.
He does not seem to fit the pattern of poorly integrated young people but who knows.
I am tempted to agree with ex Scotland Yard Bob Quick who says the Western countries should organise charter flights for anybody who wants to go!
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Old 08.07.2015, 07:05
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Re: Luton family of 12 feared to have gone to Syria to join ISIS

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I am tempted to agree with ex Scotland Yard Bob Quick who says the Western countries should organise charter flights for anybody who wants to go!
That's rather disrespectful towards the civilian population of Syria suffering under these morons... if it wasn't for them I'd agree - and on top would supply the peshmerga with anything they need to solve the problem.
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