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  #21  
Old 05.07.2015, 23:16
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Today is one of those rare moments when I'm proud to be Greek!
I hope we leave the Eurozone soon and we do not pay a cent for any more interest rates.
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  #22  
Old 05.07.2015, 23:22
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I don't think you have really grasped the situation.

The Greek government was gready and determined to join a club they didn't qualify for and the EU blinded by an impossible ideal ushered Greece into their club.

Germany benefitted from a currency worth less than the D-mark. Greece had a spending spree on Germany's credit card.

Now comes the day of reckoning. Who sufferes? The Greek people and pensioners with investments. Meanwhile Christine Legrand takes home Euro 500,000 a year tax free...
I don't think you have grasped the situation. The past Greek governments were indeed greedy, and pushed by the creditors to take loans to buy ... guess what... German military equipment, for example... why do they need it? To defend from Turkey, another NATO member state?

So now the same Germans want the money back? If I was Greek, I would return this hardware to Germans.

Sorry to hear about your losses, indeed. Next time when you have something to sell, find someone who has cash and needs your goods. Don't look for a country that does not need your goods but has a corrupt government that you can bribe to take it your products. Don't bribe your way to make them take the loan they can't repay and which they never needed in the first place (of course, this is nothing personal, AbFab, but just a paradigm of what has really happened).
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  #23  
Old 05.07.2015, 23:25
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Alls well that ends well, the Greeks voted for Syriza and this is the logical conclusion of that vote. In any case they were damned both ways, at least now they can hold their heads up and go down with some dignity.
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  #24  
Old 05.07.2015, 23:57
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

So because I'm crap at finance .. This is likely to make the euro fall a bit? This means i can go shopping at carrefour in France and it's cheaper?

And because I'm going on vacation to FR soon, I can spend more?

Selfish i know but just wondering
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Old 06.07.2015, 00:18
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

(I have posted a lot today, and I may not be able to post any more today)

Back in the early 1990s when Britain was thinking about joining the Euro, the financial experts in London said the Euro would never work, because there was no European political control over the budgets of the individual member states. There would be disparities in government spending, and because the Euro could not rise nor fall in individual countries, they predicted inflation in northern Europe and high unemployment in southern Europe.

They also pointed out how the US was in a bad situation immediately after the civil war. The southern currencies were worthless and the northern dollar was imposed on the south. Slowly the north controlled the southern budget and slowly everyone began to prosper.

My big question is how did Ireland escape the worst of their Euro disaster?

The answer is, they negotiated international loans and after 7 to 10 years of hardship they are starting to see good results. Why cannot Greece follow the same path, instead doing little, & demanding more help?

Greece seems to be jealous of Germany's strong economy. Maybe if they worked the same hours in the week, and worked until they were 65, they might be better off?

The next few months will be terrible for Greece. Tonight's euphoria will become a distant memory.
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  #26  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:20
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Today is one of those rare moments when I'm proud to be Greek!
I hope we leave the Eurozone soon and we do not pay a cent for any more interest rates.
Good , hope you leave the Eurozone and EU as well and then we'll see how the rest of the world would LOVE to lend money to you...

Expensive lesson learned - discipline must be enforced - breaking the rules must be punished.
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  #27  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:24
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I don't think you have grasped the situation. The past Greek governments were indeed greedy, and pushed by the creditors to take loans to buy ... guess what... German military equipment, for example... why do they need it? To defend from Turkey, another NATO member state?

So now the same Germans want the money back? If I was Greek, I would return this hardware to Germans.

Sorry to hear about your losses, indeed. Next time when you have something to sell, find someone who has cash and needs your goods. Don't look for a country that does not need your goods but has a corrupt government that you can bribe to take it your products. Don't bribe your way to make them take the loan they can't repay and which they never needed in the first place (of course, this is nothing personal, AbFab, but just a paradigm of what has really happened).

The Greek military...
Interesting that you mention it.
Some say a coup is out of the question.
But I say: for now!
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  #28  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:33
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Good , hope you leave the Eurozone and EU as well and then we'll see how the rest of the world would LOVE to lend money to you...

Expensive lesson learned - discipline must be enforced - breaking the rules must be punished.
You assume I think it would be a bad thing if nobody wanted to lend money to Greece.
In fact I think this would be the best news ever.

Cheers.
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  #29  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:35
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Greece seems to be jealous of Germany's strong economy. Maybe if they worked the same hours in the week, and worked until they were 65, they might be better off?
Maybe they would be in the same situation if they have built their economy on exporting the goods that are not needed by Germans to Germany?

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Have you?

Are you a pensioner with extra free time and no worry of your hard earned pension safely kept in a Swiss bank?
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  #30  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:37
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

All those that gave me groans, keep going! Keep making my day even better.

Especially for you, St2leman, is your groan addressed at my comment celebrating Greek 'oxi' a groan to greek voters, too?

Keep going man!
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  #31  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:42
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Good , hope you leave the Eurozone and EU as well and then we'll see how the rest of the world would LOVE to lend money to you...

Expensive lesson learned - discipline must be enforced - breaking the rules must be punished.

Indeed, I also hope Greece leaves the Eurozone. Followed by Italy, Spain and Portugal (I guess Germans can keep Kosovo and Montenegro, proud EU member states(!), no problem).
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  #32  
Old 06.07.2015, 00:45
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

The main problem is that no greek government wants to make the required structural reforms, so they prefer the easy way of cutting wages and increasing taxes. Meanwhile, the pension system is unsustainable, as for every pensioner there are only 1.3 workers. Negotiations are needed, but on the same time there is the need for strong governance. Greece is driven back to recession and according to IMF, during the last 6 months new financing needs of several billion euros were created.
The banks are closed and probably they are not going to open anytime soon and mr.Varoufakis said today that they plan to issue IOUs. The private sector is suffering and unless something changes immediately, the unemployment is going to rise again.
I'm afraid that Grexit is coming closer and closer everyday, unless there is a desire for honest discussion from both sides.
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  #33  
Old 06.07.2015, 01:05
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Without saying whether Greek should have voted yes or no, I do wonder if Greek people understand that the loans and the funding they have been receiving (316billion) is largely coming from other Eurozone taxpayers (195billion and counting)? Not only Germans but also for example Dutch, Finns, Belgians and Austrians.

Therefore when you want better deal (eg not to pay) you mean that other Eurozone taxpayers have to pay it for you!

Surely huge part of the money went actually to save German and French banks instead of helping poor people in Greece, but that was mostly the situation in beginning. Now the credits and risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries and it would be normal working and retired people in those other member states that would be paying for your better deal which is not excatly right either.

Some people even say that Greek just want other people to pay their parties.

Personally I hope Greek would get out of Euro, think it would be best for them and best for rest of Eurozone. Eurozone and EU could and should give them humanitarian support as much as needed but thats it. The tax payers in other Eurozone foubtries would need to take big hit but at least this show would be over. Pumping more money to Greece just means more losses in the future.

Last edited by hellacopters; 06.07.2015 at 01:16.
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  #34  
Old 06.07.2015, 01:18
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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SP500 futures open -2% down, trade sideways until Europe closes and then, having led the lemmings off the cliff, US traders turn on the jet engines and recover a large portion of the losses in a "late surge" kind of buy-the-dip. It usually was like that in these kind of crisis-but-central-banks-will-fix-it scenarios.
Merkel, Hollande are expected to meet Monday night (in 20 hours or so), too late for news before US markets close.

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What I don't get is if the IMF and ECB were to forgive the Greeks their debt....then what?

They will just need more money in a few years.
With this outcome, indeed. Pity is, they didn't need additional financing for a year, wear clearly mending. With the EU on a trajectory back to growth (that's what it looks like to me) there would have been additional backwind.

But that's all up in smoke now. The preliminary draft in section A, Background, is quite clear in its conclusion. But of course the Oxi-voters will overlook that.

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For whom? Germans? IMF?

Remind me to cry...
I'm afraid you will. Cry that is. Unless there's a solution soon, within a couple weeks or so. And I very much doubt the Troika will be in even a bit of a hurry, they'll probably see this as attempted blackmail. There's a clear message in the Hollande/Merkel meeting announced for Monday night only, as opposed to earlier, and only the two of them.

Soon there will be no fuel, no petrol, no kerosene, no coal. 95% of greek electricity generation is fossil fuels based, so there will also be no electricity.

Good luck my friend.
You'll need it
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  #35  
Old 06.07.2015, 01:52
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

I suppose they could sell Cyprus to Turkey, keep em going a bit longer.
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  #36  
Old 06.07.2015, 01:57
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I suppose they could sell Cyprus to Turkey, keep em going a bit longer.
They'd....have to buy Cyprus first.
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  #37  
Old 06.07.2015, 02:08
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

The Greeks may be mad, that is not for me to say.

What i will say however is the direct cause of the rise of National Socialism (Nazi Party) was the war damages that were charged to a bankrupt country and enforced, partly by French insistence and caused them so many problems and such embarrassment that it allowed a radical party to arise.

Now i am not saying Greece will cause the same problems as happened in Germany in the early 1930's, but the scenario is very similar, apart from Germany is quite big and orderly, Greece is smaller and diversified.

I doubt very much if the Greek situation will lead to anything else, but once the first one fall's, others are surely in the line of fire which may or may not lead to unforeseen consequences.

Shooting Arch Duke Ferdinand was not meant to go as far as it did.....
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  #38  
Old 06.07.2015, 02:59
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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They'd....have to buy Cyprus first.
Ooops, I meant Crete
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  #39  
Old 06.07.2015, 03:03
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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The Greeks may be mad, that is not for me to say.

What i will say however is the direct cause of the rise of National Socialism (Nazi Party) was the war damages that were charged to a bankrupt country and enforced, partly by French insistence and caused them so many problems and such embarrassment that it allowed a radical party to arise.

Now i am not saying Greece will cause the same problems as happened in Germany in the early 1930's, but the scenario is very similar, apart from Germany is quite big and orderly, Greece is smaller and diversified.

I doubt very much if the Greek situation will lead to anything else, but once the first one fall's, others are surely in the line of fire which may or may not lead to unforeseen consequences.

Shooting Arch Duke Ferdinand was not meant to go as far as it did.....
Methinks that Spain and Italy and Portugal will be sitting with a glass or two of Sangria/Chianti/Sagres while closely watching the outcome, like it or not Greece has become a petri-dish to see what happens when you dump the .
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  #40  
Old 06.07.2015, 04:14
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

H.L. Mencken
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