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  #61  
Old 06.07.2015, 11:25
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

At least the bankers got paid, huh?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...e-6264091.html

We should just have a ban on bank bailouts.
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  #62  
Old 06.07.2015, 11:44
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Zito!



Wonderful news. Now the Greeks will really see what austerity means. They will beg their albanian and macedonian neighbors for some help

I am actually looking forward on this. My EUR cash pile is ready to buy something near the sea somewhere in Greece. Not as an investment really, but something cheap that I can go once a year etc.

Again, the phenomenal Simpsons were right
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  #63  
Old 06.07.2015, 11:45
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

The Greek debt swindle was classic. In 2009 Greece's debt was $300 billion. It then "got" two huge bailouts in 2010 and 2012, of about $140 billion each. Less than 10% of that $275 billion stayed in Greece and was spent by the Greek government; more than 90% went directly and immediately to Deutsche Bank, HSBC, JPMorgan Chase, and their fellow sharks, with small amounts crumbling to the hedge funds swimming alongside.

Former Greek Labor and Social Security Minister Louka Katseli has given documentation that the Greek government actually got to spend or invest just 3% of that $275 billion. The only banks which had to write off their "Greek debt" were Greek banks; all of Wall Street and the London-centered banks got their toxic debt "assets" guaranteed 100% by this European bailout swindle. This made the Greek banks so bankrupt that the Greek government then had to borrow more to bail them out with $50 billion — so Greece's debt was increased when supposedly being reduced! A total swindle!

Then, between 2010 and today, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain (the PIGS) etc. were ordered to pay the bill for this huge new Europe-wide bank bailout debt. They imposed a slashing domestic austerity until their people emigrated, death rates rose and birth rates fell, and clouds of wood smoke rose over modern cities whose inhabitants could no longer afford modern heat. After five years of this punishment, Greece's $300 billion debt has become $350 billion or so — after $250 billion passed through to the banks!

And the other European countries are also on the hook for this phony debt, all of it. They guaranteed it; Greece and Ireland and the other austerity-crushed countries can't pay it, so the rest of Europe must either agree to reorganize that debt and write it down, or their taxpayers will pay for the swindle.

This is why the new Greek government now demands that Europe shut down this global bank swindle: Write off the unpayable debt; invest in reviving economic productivity by building new economic infrastructure.

I would do the same in Greece's shoes. First off, it's not that Greece did not want to pay the money, they wanted the payments restructured, so to speak. Take for example, if you owe the creditor's money. You've been trying to pay it back, but your family is suffering and the creditors don't want to restructure the loan. In other words, the creditors are saying to you: You have to pay according to our terms, if your children have to go with less food and clothing, if your family of 5 have to sell their home and move into a one bedroom apartment, so be it. If you have to go without healthcare, well, that's your problem, you owe the money. Pay it under our terms, no restructuring the loan." What would you do? I know what I would do...and that's exactly what Greece did.

Sure, Greece is going to take a hard hit. But IMHO, the Euro or EU is not the savior of the world, in fact it's a failure. Greece can pull an Iceland, (not exact same situation but similar). The government prior to the current government was incompetent as well. Maybe like Iceland, some of the bankers need to be put in the pokey (jail).

Keep in mind, Austria recently held a referendum to leave the EU even though they are doing quite well. Their beef is that decisions for the country are being made by unelected representatives in Brussels. They roughly needed only around 100,000; however, they got more than 200,000. So this should be interesting as well.

Am I saying that Greece is completely innocent no; nonetheless, the EU/Euro has turned into a tyrannical dictatorship. And it's funny how those countries that did not join the EU are doing quite well...Greece has just done suffering EU countries a service (though they took the role of the fall guy) and for democracy around the world. Countries have a right to their sovereignty and big business, NWO with the same old western countries at the helm is passe'...the gig is up!
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Old 06.07.2015, 11:53
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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The chart below depicts import, exports, and the balance of the two, for the last 50 years. As you can see, Greece has a habit of importing much more than they export. That means greeks need some other means to pay, which (a bit simplified) means they need credit.
Cough... no offense but economy isn't that simple: Greece is quite obviously a service-based economy and the biggest money maker is tourism. That's not in your graph, is it?

The hard truth is that Greece as a economy is "technically" fine but the problem is corruption, incompetence and cronyism on a scale you normally just find in the worst 3rd world countries. Before the financial crisis have rich Greeks evaded taxes in an unbelievable scale. Not for a short period, but for decades... which means during the times of very different governments, so ALL the Greek parties are involved. Even the Greek tax police themselves have estimated that if everyone would simply follow the Greek tax laws would there be no debt or problem.

I feel very sorry for the average Greek getting the stick for this situation but quite frankly don't see why other Europeans should be paying the bill the rich Greeks didn't pick up although they legally had to. I am all for solidarity, but not with rich tax evaders... and while we were discussing the topic for four years: how many of them were forced to finally pay their taxes? How many accounts frozen? It simply cannot be that hard to find out some of the worst cases, make a show trial and get other people to own up. Instead did anyone with more than 500 EUR on their bank account move their money outside of Greece years ago... this 60 EUR daily limit only hits working class people and pensioners.
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Old 06.07.2015, 11:56
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

OK, so, since Tsipras used a coward and populist tactic, deceiving their own people and risking their future, wouldn't be also "democratic" for the EU members to call its own referendum?

For the EU tax payers: YES or NO ?

DO YOU AGREE TO SUSTAIN GREECE'S NEGATIVE FISCAL BALANCE, THUS MAINTAINING IT IN THE EUROZONE, WITH THE EXPENSE OF YOUR OWN MONEY?
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:05
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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OK, so, since Tsipras used a coward and populist tactic, deceiving their own people and risking their future, wouldn't be also "democratic" for the EU members to call its own referendum?

For the EU tax payers: YES or NO ?

DO YOU AGREE TO SUSTAIN GREECE'S NEGATIVE FISCAL BALANCE, THUS MAINTAINING IT IN THE EUROZONE, WITH THE EXPENSE OF YOUR OWN MONEY?
But the EU doesn't believe in referendums, because it gets expensive and embarrassing when you have to do them twice when the people vote incorrectly the first time!

I would have preferred and earlier referendum which asked: DO YOU AGREE TO BAIL OUT THE BIG US BANKS WHO MADE HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY BY LENDING IRRESPONSIBLY AND TAKE ON THESE DEBTS (INCLUDING GREEK DEBTS) THAT WE KNOW WILL NEVER GET PAID, IS LIKELY TO LEAD TO YEARS OF HARDSHIP IN GREECE AND EVENTUALLY THE REST OF THE EU WHEN WE DON'T GET PAID INSTEAD OF LETTING THE BANKS THAT LENT IRRESPONSIBILITY TAKE THE LOSSES THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR? P.S. THIS WILL COST BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND MEAN THAT YOU WILL HAVE HIGHER TAXES, LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE BUT ON THE UPSIDE, IT MEANS THE BANKERS WILL HAVE EVEN BIGGER BONUSES!
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  #67  
Old 06.07.2015, 12:16
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

This frankly unbelievable and simply immoral:

Christine Lagarde, the International Monetary Fund managing director who provoked an angry reaction from the Greek people after telling them to pay their taxes, does not pay tax on her own salary.
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  #68  
Old 06.07.2015, 12:19
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

News from back in 1997. Olympics awarded to Athens.

This really didn't help. Bloomberg highlighted this in an article from 2012.

€ 9 billion to host and pay for the Olympic Games and it kicked off the national decline.

For the sake of willy waving to your international peers.
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:24
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Why immoral, she is not 'evading' taxes? She just happens to work for an international organisation where her salary is tax free.
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:28
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

I always thought that the idea of the EU as a trade block was great. Then they got overambitious and started currency union, plus diverting some decisions to Brussels and aligning all kinds of rules and regulations.

Bound to end in tears sooner or later, if not this time and they succeed in kicking the can down the road again then the train will crash later.
There are just too many differences between the individual countries for it to hold together.

BTW, the pollsters got it badly wrong again - al that rubbish about "neck and neck".
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:38
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I always thought that the idea of the EU as a trade block was great.
Unfortunately, that wasn't the original plan.

The nasty, illiberal, "ever-closer union" we see today is exactly what they had in mind at the beginning.
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:46
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

The European Union was started with the "European Coal and Steel Community"... I think that was what he was referring to.
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  #73  
Old 06.07.2015, 12:49
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Good , hope you leave the Eurozone and EU as well and then we'll see how the rest of the world would LOVE to lend money to you...
I hope this too! That would be the best news for Greeks ever - that there is not anymore a corrupt Greek government daring to take the forced loans in order to keep Germany's economy blooming, at the expense of an average Greek taxpayer.

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Without saying whether Greek should have voted yes or no, I do wonder if Greek people understand that the loans and the funding they have been receiving (316billion) is largely coming from other Eurozone taxpayers (195billion and counting)? Not only Germans but also for example Dutch, Finns, Belgians and Austrians.
I also wonder whether Germans, Dutch, Finns, Belgians and Austrians understood that their governments were taking upon debts owned to PRIVATE banks, and transforming them to PUBLIC, which eventually (should Greece default), they would be paying?

Quote:
Therefore when you want better deal (eg not to pay) you mean that other Eurozone taxpayers have to pay it for you!
Not for 'you (i.e. Greeks)' but for the debts of Deutsche Bank, Golden Sachs, you name it...

Quote:
Surely huge part of the money went actually to save German and French banks instead of helping poor people in Greece, but that was mostly the situation in beginning. Now the credits and risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries and it would be normal working and retired people in those other member states that would be paying for your better deal which is not excatly right either.
Really? This was the situation in the beginning, but now the 'credit risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries'? And not even for a second you ask yourself WHY was this taken over? Did you support your government taking over those risks?

Well, now you got what you deserved, don't blame it on the Greeks (alone)!

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The tax payers in other Eurozone foubtries would need to take big hit but at least this show would be over. Pumping more money to Greece just means more losses in the future.
Sure, but continue pumping to Deutsche Bank, etc...

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I'm afraid you will... Good luck my friend.
You'll need it
Will I? I am not Greek, if this is what you have implied. Luckily, I am not the rest of the EU voter/taxpayer, either.
But I love to see you guys crying over the spilled milk (i.e when you couldn't care less of PRIVATE EU banks debt being turned into PUBLIC). LOL.

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The chart below depicts import, exports, and the balance of the two, for the last 50 years. As you can see, Greece has a habit of importing much more than they export. That means greeks need some other means to pay, which (a bit simplified) means they need credit.
Do they? These Greeks!... shame on them.
And this has nothing to do with large EU businesses (military or else) corrupting successive Greek governments to take the loans to purchase things they don't need, just to keep northern EU economies growing?

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That is the bit I don't get - lesson of a real democracy. About 6 million Greeks voted, of which not even 4 million voted 'No'. That is not even 1% of the population of the EU and yet they seem to think that gives them a mandate to force the other 18 nations to do their bidding! The others are also elected leaders with a mandate to represent their people, the majority of which have a different political philosophy. The massive 'No' vote to my mind makes it much easier for the a sufficient number of the 18 to say 'No' and send Greece careering into an even greater recession!
You are probably the only one thinking Greek votes forces other 18 nations to do anything. No single Greek thinks this.

I am not even sure why are you (and I don't mean this personally), so obsessed with results of Greek referendum? Weren't you (i.e. Troika, and others thinkalikes) saying that this deal is off the table, the moment you were shocked by the news of a referendum being called?

Why do you care about vote results against something that doesn't exist in a first place? LOL

Thanks for quoting this article, st2lemans.

"There is another key fact that the Greeks are keenly aware of (but which everyone else has forgotten). This debt was initially owed to private investment banks, like Goldman Sachs. But the IMF and the ECB made the suicidal decision to let those private banks transfer that debt to EU insitutions and the IMF to "rescue" Greece. As Business Insider reported back in April, former ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet insisted that the debt transfer take place"

Are you still maintaining your groans addressed at Greek people?
LOL

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OK, so, since Tsipras used a coward and populist tactic, deceiving their own people and risking their future, wouldn't be also "democratic" for the EU members to call its own referendum?

For the EU tax payers: YES or NO ?

DO YOU AGREE TO SUSTAIN GREECE'S NEGATIVE FISCAL BALANCE, THUS MAINTAINING IT IN THE EUROZONE, WITH THE EXPENSE OF YOUR OWN MONEY?
Indeed, you should have been asked by Trichet the same question before he lobbied that the private debt becomes yours. LOL.
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:50
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Unfortunately, that wasn't the original plan.

The nasty, illiberal, "ever-closer union" we see today is exactly what they had in mind at the beginning.
Anything more substantial to support this assertion?
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:57
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Cough... no offense but economy isn't that simple: Greece is quite obviously a service-based economy and the biggest money maker is tourism. That's not in your graph, is it?
"Goods traded and services" (internationally). Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, international tourism is part of the services balance as it's considered to be exported.

Last edited by Urs Max; 06.07.2015 at 13:10.
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  #76  
Old 06.07.2015, 12:57
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Anything more substantial to support this assertion?
Quote:
The Governments of Belgium, France, the German Federal Republic, Italy, Luxembourg and the
Netherlands,

CONSIDERING that world peace can only be protected by creative efforts commensurate with the dangers
which threaten it;

CONVINCED that the contribution which an organized and vital Europe can bring to civilization is
indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations;

AWARE that united Europe can only be achieved by concrete measures creating at the outset a de facto
solidarity and by the construction of common foundations for its economic development;

DESIROUS, by means of the expansion of their basic production, of contributing to a higher standard of
living and the progress of the work for peace,

DETERMINED to replace age-old rivalries by a merging of their fundamental interests, to lay the first
foundations, through the establishment of an economic pool, of a broader and deeper community between
peoples long divided by cruel strife and to prepare the ground for institutions capable of guiding a destiny
henceforth to be shared in common;

HAVE RESOLVED on the establishment of a European Coal and Steel Pool.
http://www.cvce.eu/obj/joint_declara...a8487bdfd.html

Quote:
"We can never sufficiently emphasise that the six Community countries are the forerunners of a broader, united Europe..." - Jean Monnet, 1978.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/FSTREAT/TR1.php

... and, of course, the Treaty of Rome itself: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/emu_his...ometreaty2.pdf
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Old 06.07.2015, 12:59
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I hope this too! That would be the best news for Greeks ever - that there is not anymore a corrupt Greek government daring to take the forced loans in order to keep Germany's economy blooming, at the expense of an average Greek taxpayer.



I also wonder whether Germans, Dutch, Finns, Belgians and Austrians understood that their governments were taking upon debts owned to PRIVATE banks, and transforming them to PUBLIC, which eventually (should Greece default), they would be paying?



Not for 'you (i.e. Greeks)' but for the debts of Deutsche Bank, Golden Sachs, you name it...



Really? This was the situation in the beginning, but now the 'credit risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries'? And not even for a second you ask yourself WHY was this taken over? Did you support your government taking over those risks?

Well, now you got what you deserved, don't blame it on the Greeks (alone)!



Sure, but continue pumping to Deutsche Bank, etc...



Will I? I am not Greek, if this is what you have implied. Luckily, I am not the rest of the EU voter/taxpayer, either.
But I love to see you guys crying over the spilled milk (i.e when you couldn't care less of PRIVATE EU banks debt being turned into PUBLIC). LOL.



Do they? These Greeks!... shame on them.
And this has nothing to do with large EU businesses (military or else) corrupting successive Greek governments to take the loans to purchase things they don't need, just to keep northern EU economies growing?



You are probably the only one thinking Greek votes forces other 18 nations to do anything. No single Greek thinks this.

I am not even sure why are you (and I don't mean this personally), so obsessed with results of Greek referendum? Weren't you (i.e. Troika, and others thinkalikes) saying that this deal is off the table, the moment you were shocked by the news of a referendum being called?

Why do you care about vote results against something that doesn't exist in a first place? LOL



Thanks for quoting this article, st2lemans.

"There is another key fact that the Greeks are keenly aware of (but which everyone else has forgotten). This debt was initially owed to private investment banks, like Goldman Sachs. But the IMF and the ECB made the suicidal decision to let those private banks transfer that debt to EU insitutions and the IMF to "rescue" Greece. As Business Insider reported back in April, former ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet insisted that the debt transfer take place"

Are you still maintaining your groans addressed at Greek people?
LOL



Indeed, you should have been asked by Trichet the same question before he lobbied that the private debt becomes yours. LOL.
What do you mean by "private" banks? If the debt was not paid then the problem would fall on the shoulders of exactly the same sort of people as "public"; pension funds, people with savings and eventually bail out by tax payers?
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  #78  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:00
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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That would be the best news for Greeks ever - that there is not anymore a corrupt Greek government daring to take the forced loans in order to keep Germany's economy blooming, at the expense of an average Greek taxpayer.
Obvious troll is obvious... The average Greek taxpayer does not pay taxes.
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Old 06.07.2015, 13:09
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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What do you mean by "private" banks? If the debt was not paid then the problem would fall on the shoulders of exactly the same sort of people as "public"; pension funds, people with savings and eventually bail out by tax payers?
Quote:
"There is another key fact that the Greeks are keenly aware of (but which everyone else has forgotten). This debt was initially owed to private investment banks, like Goldman Sachs. But the IMF and the ECB made the suicidal decision to let those private banks transfer that debt to EU insitutions and the IMF to "rescue" Greece. As Business Insider reported back in April, former ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet insisted that the debt transfer take place"
Does above answer your question? Sure, it is taxpayers, but a zilllion dollar question is - which ones? Greek, or German?

You should have posed your question to Trichet, at the time.

I am sure you did. LOL.
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Old 06.07.2015, 13:10
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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The European Union was started with the "European Coal and Steel Community"... I think that was what he was referring to.
After that it was called " the common market" - ring any bells. That was with the Treaty of Rome with the aim of free movement of people and services.
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