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  #81  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:13
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Indeed, you should have been asked by Trichet the same question before he lobbied that the private debt becomes yours. LOL.
Frankly you are very naive and if you are greek, very ungrateful too.

Greece was in the verge of collapse and would default on the debt, putting the country into chaos. Trichet, well intentioned or not, intelligently or not, decided to help Greece by buying it's debt.

If he was secretly helping the private banks, that's another story, but the fact is that his action saved Greece at that time.

Greece has had many chances but hasn't done its homework. And Tsipras has shown he has no intention to change that: he re-hired many public employees and even restarted the money-sucking state television channel.
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  #82  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:13
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Does above answer your question? Sure, it is taxpayers, but a zilllion dollar question is - which ones? Greek, or German?

You should have posed your question to Trichet, at the time.

I am sure you did. LOL.
Greek?

Not if they didn't pay back the banks?
Not if they do not pay back the IMF, ECB, etc.
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  #83  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:20
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Frankly you are very naive and if you are greek, very ungrateful too.

Greece was in the verge of collapse and would default on the debt, putting the country into chaos. Trichet, well intentioned or not, intelligently or not, decided to help Greece by buying it's debt.

If he was secretly helping the private banks, that's another story, but the fact is that his action saved Greece at that time.

Greece has had many chances but hasn't done its homework. And Tsipras has shown he has no intention to change that: he re-hired many public employees and even restarted the money-sucking state television channel.
Since you are not naive, and so compassionate for Greeks (i.e. like Trichet), now go pay their debt (as you already made sure Deutshe bank CEO got his/her bonuses).
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  #84  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:23
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Why immoral, she is not 'evading' taxes? She just happens to work for an international organisation where her salary is tax free.
Do you not find it odd that she is telling the Greeks to pay their taxes whilst not paying a penny tax herself? Perhaps not immoral but slightly santimonious.

In many cultures it is acceptable to have more than one wife. But that doesn't stop the rest of the world looking on and finding it fooked up.
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  #85  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:31
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

[RANT MODE ON]

Seriously, I'm starting to think that Germany should rule the entire Europe! Well, at least the more developed Greece cousin (Italy).

It's no secret that Italian politicians are probably the worst of the developed world. The left and right don't do nothing in favor of people and just keep fighting between each other, while enjoying lavish benefits. Even when one side has a truly good proposal, the other will go against it just for the sake of it.

But it's very "surprising" that many politicians from the left and the right are now together bashing Merkel and Germany. Well, if we look at Germany, their balance is sound, their productivity is higher, their unemployment rate is lower, they have less politicians per each inhabitants and, oh, most of their politicians work FOR the German people, and not for themselves!

[RANT MODE OFF]
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  #86  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:37
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I also wonder whether Germans, Dutch, Finns, Belgians and Austrians understood that their governments were taking upon debts owned to PRIVATE banks, and transforming them to PUBLIC, which eventually (should Greece default), they would be paying?

Not for 'you (i.e. Greeks)' but for the debts of Deutsche Bank, Golden Sachs, you name it...

Really? This was the situation in the beginning, but now the 'credit risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries'? And not even for a second you ask yourself WHY was this taken over? Did you support your government taking over those risks?

Well, now you got what you deserved, don't blame it on the Greeks (alone)!

Sure, but continue pumping to Deutsche Bank, etc..
You are probably the only one thinking Greek votes forces other 18 nations to do anything. No single Greek thinks this.

LOL.
Not sure how much you have followed European politics in last years but answer is actually yes, this topic of socialising private bankers depts to taxpayers has been discussed and has caused a alot of political turbulence in member states. Personally I think they (the politicians who did this) should be taken to court for it.

This does not however change the situation we have now and have had for the last years and just because Eurozone taxpayers were fu##### by the bad decisions of their own leaders 5years ago, doesnt mean that they would now have any oblication to keep paying. Actually opposite, either Greek need to pay like usually expected when you take a loan, or then if they dont, they need go get out of Eurozone, stop demanding for any money and deal with their proplemns themselves.

The option that Syriza and their supporters seems to want where the Eurozone just keeps paying for more and more, should not continue even for one more day.
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  #87  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:38
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Seriously, I'm starting to think that Germany should rule the entire Europe! Well, at least the more developed Greece cousin (Italy).
You are not the first one to think accordingly. There were similar voices in the (midst of) XXth century, but they did not limit it's aspirations to Europe.
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  #88  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:39
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Do you not find it odd that she is telling the Greeks to pay their taxes whilst not paying a penny tax herself? Perhaps not immoral but slightly santimonious.
I honestly cannot see the hypocrisy or sanctimonious nature of her comments. She is essentially a diplomat and therefore under the Vienna Convention exempt from paying income tax (even if she wanted to).

Would you rather she got a typical CEO salary in the millions and paid 30% tax on that. In which case the papers would probably describe her as a haughty Marie Antoinette, telling poor Greeks to tighten their belts whilst she jets around scoffing caviar and champagne
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  #89  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:48
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Who are the Germans to lecture the Greeks about debt defaulting? Germany is one of the biggest debt transgressors in history - after being bailed out by their creditors due to their pre/postwar mess.

Recall the German Economic Miracle --- London Debt Agreement 1953

Greece wrote off and helped restructure their debts.

The victory is for the Greek people. The pressure from the creditors is causing extremist parties to rise in Greece.

Government should be reshuffled. A hunt for tax evaders should be launched, money should be collected to pay back some debts.
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  #90  
Old 06.07.2015, 13:53
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I honestly cannot see the hypocrisy or sanctimonious nature of her comments. She is essentially a diplomat and therefore under the Vienna Convention exempt from paying income tax (even if she wanted to).

Would you rather she got a typical CEO salary in the millions and paid 30% tax on that. In which case the papers would probably describe her as a haughty Marie Antoinette, telling poor Greeks to tighten their belts whilst she jets around scoffing caviar and champagne
I couldn’t give two shites about the Vienna convention. These comments just perpetuate the (largely true) impression that people who work for international organisations are on an enormous gravy train. And the finger wagging "do as I say, not as I do” attitude that many bureaucrats and those of the political elite have.
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  #91  
Old 06.07.2015, 14:16
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Thanks. I really wish that the unelected Lagarde would f@$k off.
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  #92  
Old 06.07.2015, 14:43
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Greece had six (!) state insolvencies in the last 200 years...
Less than Germany and Spain then...

https://twitter.com/ClaudeCueni/stat...691200/photo/1

Insolvency through economic incompetence is also probably preferable to insolvency through warring.
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  #93  
Old 06.07.2015, 15:02
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Really? This was the situation in the beginning, but now the 'credit risk has been taken over by other Eurozone countries'? And not even for a second you ask yourself WHY was this taken over? Did you support your government taking over those risks?
No. In particular, what the ECB did to Ireland was a travesty:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-...t-2014-11?r=US

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Frankly you are very naive and if you are greek, very ungrateful too.

Greece was in the verge of collapse and would default on the debt, putting the country into chaos. Trichet, well intentioned or not, intelligently or not, decided to help Greece by buying it's debt.
Buying up the Greek debt helped the banks not Greece. Because they took what they knew to be bad debts off the hands of the banks, who would have made a loss on them, and instead passed them onto Europe's tax payers.

Arguably this has made the problem WORSE for Greece. Instead of easily defaulting on a private bank, now they have the whole EU/ECB/IMF bureaucracy to deal with instead of perhaps quite easily being able to negotiate with the original creditor banks.
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  #94  
Old 06.07.2015, 15:18
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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No. In particular, what the ECB did to Ireland was a travesty:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-...t-2014-11?r=US
Complete nonsense - it reduced the ability of the public servant class to pay themselves obscene pensions and pay for doing shag all work - they're still massively overpaid as it is.
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Old 06.07.2015, 15:37
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Personally, I believe that in the long term, going back to drachma will work better for Greece. The imports will be killed (too bad for Germany, France, UK, etc. losing a market of 11 mil people), the exports and tourism will be boosted. Yes, people will not have money to buy the latest iPhone. They will not be receiving a big salary, but they will be receiving SOME SORT of salary (VS the almost 30% or 60% in young people unemployment of now).

The challenge is how they cope with the debt and the expenses in the short-term. If they switch to drachma and the debt is in euros (320 bil), they can never pay back. They will say, we want to pay back but in reality they will never be able to do that. Unless, Russia and/or China sweep in to save the day. We all saw what Russia did to guarantee their nautical bases in Crimea, wouldn't they like some nautical bases in Aegean sea? Ionian sea? Crete?

Bottom-line, I don't believe the EU partners will allow things to go that far, no matter what they say. Imagine how it would play if Merkel, Hollande, etc. go back to their voters and say: "Look, remember those 320 bil euros of your money that we lent to Greece to swap their debt towards our banks? Well, we kind of lost the money..." OR WORST "Great, we got your money back, but as a consequence Russia has a nautical base opposite Italy and can influence EU decisions through Greek vetos."

Already the Greek government made the first step to restart negotiations and removed Varoufakis (which was considered to be an obstacle by EU partners). So, let's see how this plays...
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  #96  
Old 06.07.2015, 16:04
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Complete nonsense - it reduced the ability of the public servant class to pay themselves obscene pensions and pay for doing shag all work - they're still massively overpaid as it is.
You've either quoted the wrong thing or not understood what the quoted article says.
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  #97  
Old 06.07.2015, 16:46
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Who are the Germans to lecture the Greeks about debt defaulting? Germany is one of the biggest debt transgressors in history - after being bailed out by their creditors due to their pre/postwar mess.

Recall the German Economic Miracle --- London Debt Agreement 1953

Greece wrote off and helped restructure their debts.

The victory is for the Greek people. The pressure from the creditors is causing extremist parties to rise in Greece.

Government should be reshuffled. A hunt for tax evaders should be launched, money should be collected to pay back some debts.
I've heard this argument a lot, particularly from Greek people being interviewed on TV. So I thought I'd do a little digging.

Seems that when the London Agreement took place, Germany was in debt some 31 billion Deutschmarks. Roughly half of that was written off and the rest was restructured over the next 30 years. To make the maths easy, let's assume that Greece was the only creditor and they generously wrote off 15.5 billion. In today's numbers, assuming the currency conversion website I'm using is right, that's about 8 billion Euros. Somehow I don't think that's right but I'll go with it for now until I can find something more reliable.

Even if Germany forgave an equal amount (8 billion Euros) now, Greece would still owe 60 billion to Germany, not counting what it owes to other creditors. But in Merkel's shoes I'd forgive the 8 billion off the top just to put that story to rest and try to move forward.

I also think the creditors could offer more extended terms for repayment. Germany had 30 years, surely Greece could have 10, 15, 20 or more, provided they meet some interim benchmarks? And I mean actually meet them, not just ask to come back to the negotiating table and not pay anything on schedule.
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  #98  
Old 06.07.2015, 17:05
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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They'd....have to buy Cyprus first.
Maybe just borrow it.
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  #99  
Old 06.07.2015, 17:06
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Wiki says €60-70bln (exchange rate 4.20-4.60). Did you perhaps miss a zero?

Forgiving those debts on WW2 grounds could open a Pandoras box of other countries raising demands as well.

The €240bln owed by Greece to ECB/EU have up to 30 years duration already (expiration 2044). Just don't ask me which amounts have which duration.
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Old 06.07.2015, 17:07
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

They say one can judge a man by the company he keeps... http://www.kathimerini.gr/822437/art...es-kai-kirxner
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