Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 06.07.2015, 17:27
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Obvious troll is obvious... The average Greek taxpayer does not pay taxes.
Let me guess, you read this in the Bild Zeitung.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank lewton for this useful post:
  #102  
Old 06.07.2015, 17:34
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 6,524
Groaned at 43 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 9,174 Times in 4,358 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Wiki says €60-70bln (exchange rate 4.20-4.60). Did you perhaps miss a zero?
No zero missing, just using the English version of Wikipedia (my link) along with a historical currency converter. Your number looks more realistic if we're trying to equate 1953 Deutschmarks to 2015 Euros. I think the converter was trying to equate a non-existent 2015 DEM to EUR or something.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 06.07.2015, 17:36
parnell's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 385
Groaned at 88 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 947 Times in 445 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
You've either quoted the wrong thing or not understood what the quoted article says.
You've either never lived in Ireland or are writing complete chit.

The crisis in Ireland was and remains a massive opportunity to stop the government growing out of all proportion - the health service in particular is an absurd money pit - and now - thanks to the likes of Syriza people start to get the great idea they can default on their debts - which is exactly the same as breaking their promises.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 06.07.2015, 18:13
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 765
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,694 Times in 508 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Let me guess, you read this in the Bild Zeitung.
No. An example would be this study by the University of Chicago:

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/blogs/in...taxevasion.pdf

It was widely quoted at the time by quite a few newspapers too. Just the self employed professionals racked up unpaid taxes in one year alone to the tune of >30% of the budget deficit (about 28 billion Euros in monetary terms).

Greece has a known and massive tax avoidance problem. They openly admit it too so I don't know what are you on about.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #105  
Old 06.07.2015, 18:21
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,485
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
You've either never lived in Ireland or are writing complete chit.

The crisis in Ireland was and remains a massive opportunity to stop the government growing out of all proportion - the health service in particular is an absurd money pit - and now - thanks to the likes of Syriza people start to get the great idea they can default on their debts - which is exactly the same as breaking their promises.
Interesting point of view. How much do you suppose the government wages or spending have decreased compared to the additional debt now that the public owes?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #106  
Old 06.07.2015, 18:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,971
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

the most frustrating thing about the whole situation to me, as a non-Greek, is the tremendously irresponsible speculation among the various western media outlets. the reality is that the downside risk of a Greek default has been priced into the Euro for several months now, and the Euro will likely rebound slightly no matter what resolution on Greece ultimately comes - since all the market cares about is certainty.

the US media is the absolute worst at covering the situation, you would think that the entirety of Europe was going to descend into a scene straight out of Mother Courage.

Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #107  
Old 06.07.2015, 18:38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Zurich
Posts: 57
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 40 Times in 18 Posts
hellacopters has no particular reputation at present
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Greece has a known and massive tax avoidance problem. They openly admit it too so I don't know what are you on about.
They should not worry, in Northern Europe people are happy to pay up to 45-55% income tax alone so that part of it can be send to Greece who dont feel like paying theirs.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank hellacopters for this useful post:
  #108  
Old 06.07.2015, 20:35
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Somebody posted an excellent article a few pages back from the Business Insider: it explains why the possibility of your debtor not paying back the debt is part of the business.
"People have to pay their debts" sounds like teaching a kid to make his bed in the morning. When he becomes an adult he can do whatever he wants.
Same with the debt. You can't force anybody to pay so you'd better be careful who you are lending to.


I didn't expect to have to explain such basic concepts about capitalism to a forum of expats in Switzerland. Maybe to a group of catholic nuns.


Basically my dear German, French, Irish, Italian and Spanish friends your governments took your tax money and sent it over to a black hole (aka Greece). I would also be mad at my government if I were you.
__________________
Moving in and out of Switzerland (because it's fun).
Currently away. Miss the Alps.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lewton for this useful post:
  #109  
Old 06.07.2015, 21:27
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,549 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Seems the ECB have decided today to extend their emergency loan to Greece but with no increase in value and with higher collateral.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 06.07.2015, 21:40
xynth's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 765
Groaned at 37 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,694 Times in 508 Posts
xynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond reputexynth has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
I didn't expect to have to explain such basic concepts about capitalism to a forum of expats in Switzerland. Maybe to a group of catholic nuns.
You fail at your insults.

Nobody gives a rats arse about the money that is already sunk. It is blindingly obvious that it is gone and that it was a mistake. What people are arguing against is sending yet more money without any sign of true reforms happening in the Greek society.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank xynth for this useful post:
  #111  
Old 06.07.2015, 21:41
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 13,778
Groaned at 209 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 11,093 Times in 6,292 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Seems the ECB have decided today to extend their emergency loan to Greece but with no increase in value and with higher collateral.
You could not make it up, beyond belief, its amazing what people will do with someone else money.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #112  
Old 06.07.2015, 21:49
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
You fail at your insults.
I'm not trying to insult anybody, I'm way too happy for this.

Love.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 06.07.2015, 22:04
AnAustralian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 1,201
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 557 Times in 315 Posts
Blog Entries: 3
AnAustralian is considered knowledgeableAnAustralian is considered knowledgeableAnAustralian is considered knowledgeable
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
I'm not trying to insult anybody, I'm way too happy for this.

Love.
Where I come from if money is lent and the money is not paid back the borrower is considered a scumbag, and the lender a fool for lending and losing. The scumbag is generally considered the worse of the two, unless the lender has lent the money with ridiculous conditions to reap some kind of profit (i.e. very high interest rates). Even under these tough conditions though, the scumbag agreed to it in the first place, so also becomes the fool.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank AnAustralian for this useful post:
  #114  
Old 06.07.2015, 23:04
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,549 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
You could not make it up, beyond belief, its amazing what people will do with someone else money.
Reminds me of the Maggie Thatcher quote "Socialism is fine until they run out of other people's money".
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #115  
Old 06.07.2015, 23:09
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,092
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,074 Times in 1,060 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Bottom-line, I don't believe the EU partners will allow things to go that far, no matter what they say. Imagine how it would play if Merkel, Hollande, etc. go back to their voters and say: "Look, remember those 320 bil euros of your money that we lent to Greece to swap their debt towards our banks? Well, we kind of lost the money..." OR WORST "Great, we got your money back, but as a consequence Russia has a nautical base opposite Italy and can influence EU decisions through Greek vetos."
Gee you'd wonder why Putin has not done so already, perhaps unlike you, he knows that the minute Greece prints a drachma they are out of the Euro. And being in breach of a treaty and under the influence of a third country, their voting rights would be suspended.

Quote:
View Post
Already the Greek government made the first step to restart negotiations and removed Varoufakis (which was considered to be an obstacle by EU partners). So, let's see how this plays...
The resounding No vote makes it easier for the EuroGroup to justify their stance to their own electorate, so yes it will be very interesting to see what happens next. Although regardless of what does come next, the one certainty is that it will be hardship for may Greeks.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 06.07.2015, 23:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,465
Groaned at 50 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 2,233 Times in 1,227 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
You do understand that this type of mentality and attitude where just not paying back dept to neigboring countries is seen as a perfectly normal and accetable choice - would kill any trust countries and financial institutions have with each other.
Well, technically I don't think there are lots of states in this part of the Galaxy where debt actually gets paid back.
It's rolled over (and often increases in the process).
They pay back a loan from 2004 and take out a new one due 2024.
Every day.
At some point, every state in the western world will be where Greece is now.
They just took a fast path ;-)
In the past, there usually came a war and you could reset the clock or loot your enemy. Few states have that option these days.

I have to say, though, that Greece is in for a very, very brutal awakening.
Everything in this country has been on life-support for the last five years. Infrastructure, public services, the banks - you name it.
The last half year, the only reason it wasn't falling apart earlier was because ECB continued to pour ELA-money into the banks.


Best thing would probably be to let the whole thing crash, split the remains between the surrounding countries and file the debt under the "lessons learned" department.

When your people don't pay taxes, you have no state anyway. Simple as that.
Might as well stop pretending otherwise.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #117  
Old 06.07.2015, 23:40
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,971
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Somebody posted an excellent article a few pages back from the Business Insider: it explains why the possibility of your debtor not paying back the debt is part of the business.
we are not talking private debt here, though, we are talking sovereign debt. default on sovereign debt is significantly more serious, but I am sure you already knew that and were simply trying to be cute.

I've posted it before but it is always worth repeating - there is no situation where Greece simply wipes hundreds of billions of Euros of sovereign debt off its balance sheet and goes back to "business as normal". the Germans, the French, the Belgians, the banks, the IMF, etc., etc, etc. - they are all going to come out of this smelling like roses, because they have all of the leverage. and, fair or unfair, Greece needs access to foreign capital far, far more than any member of the EU needs Greece. the people who are going to get screwed are the Greeks, who will find their pensions and social benefits getting cut, access to capital for small business and other investment cut off, investment in infrastructure drastically reduced, and so on. anybody who chuckles at the thought of the Germans or anybody else in the Eurozone taking it in the shorts are like fools whistling past the graveyard.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 06.07.2015, 23:44
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
Where I come from if money is lent and the money is not paid back the borrower is considered a scumbag, and the lender a fool for lending and losing. The scumbag is generally considered the worse of the two, unless the lender has lent the money with ridiculous conditions to reap some kind of profit (i.e. very high interest rates). Even under these tough conditions though, the scumbag agreed to it in the first place, so also becomes the fool.

I've always loved Australia, now I know why.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lewton for this useful post:
  #119  
Old 07.07.2015, 00:05
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,549 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Quote:
View Post
we are not talking private debt here, though, we are talking sovereign debt. default on sovereign debt is significantly more serious, but I am sure you already knew that and were simply trying to be cute.

I've posted it before but it is always worth repeating - there is no situation where Greece simply wipes hundreds of billions of Euros of sovereign debt off its balance sheet and goes back to "business as normal". the Germans, the French, the Belgians, the banks, the IMF, etc., etc, etc. - they are all going to come out of this smelling like roses, because they have all of the leverage. and, fair or unfair, Greece needs access to foreign capital far, far more than any member of the EU needs Greece. the people who are going to get screwed are the Greeks, who will find their pensions and social benefits getting cut, access to capital for small business and other investment cut off, investment in infrastructure drastically reduced, and so on. anybody who chuckles at the thought of the Germans or anybody else in the Eurozone taking it in the shorts are like fools whistling past the graveyard.
Indeed.
The difficult point for me is how such a debt write off would be handled technically; as you say it is sovereign debt and managed via central banks.
So assume there are x billion Euros in circulation in Eurozone - so after a debt write off of say 320 B does this mean the assets backing the euro are also reduced in value?
I mean if Greece had its own currency it would handle the debt write off by simply depreciating but we can't depreciate the euro?
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 07.07.2015, 00:14
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berlin, Deutschland
Posts: 608
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 507 Times in 292 Posts
lewton has earned some respectlewton has earned some respect
Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Let's hope tomorrow everybody will see reason and agree as civilised people that a GREXIT from the euro is the best for everybody involved.
Some people in this thread have made really mean comments, speaking about punishing etc, as if the satisfaction of punishing the Greeks will make up for what you perceive as stolen money. Whatever makes you happy, I guess.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Catalan referendum ratbag International affairs/politics 75 10.11.2015 06:53
English-Greek speaking Nanny-teach greek available from October zurich evangelia Jobs wanted 2 21.05.2015 19:14
Sink Floyd - Another Greek in the wall (Greek debt song) idefix Jokes/funnies 1 25.10.2012 23:53
Swiss hold referendum referendum The Local Swiss news via The Local 1 15.06.2012 12:43


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0