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  #141  
Old 07.07.2015, 20:43
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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...based on which data?
The data that people did not starve before adopting the euro.
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  #142  
Old 07.07.2015, 20:47
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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The data that people did not starve before adopting the euro.
They were also not in deep debt and economical crysis before adopting the euro. (Or am I wrong?)

p.s. "self-efficient" can be interpreted in many different ways - which one did you have in mind?
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  #143  
Old 07.07.2015, 20:53
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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They were also not in deep debt and economical crysis before adopting the euro. (Or am I wrong?)
Yes you are wrong, we just did not know how bad it was, they hid it well!
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  #144  
Old 07.07.2015, 21:32
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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They were also not in deep debt and economical crysis before adopting the euro. (Or am I wrong?)

p.s. "self-efficient" can be interpreted in many different ways - which one did you have in mind?
Meant we produced enough food to feed everybody.
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  #145  
Old 22.07.2015, 13:03
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

I know it's old but in case somebody hasn't seen it:

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  #146  
Old 23.07.2015, 02:31
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Meant we produced enough food to feed everybody.


To cover the imports and to finance the fairly high living standard, there have to be more EXPORTS plus more Investments from outside. If seaports and airports are sold to private domestic and foreign investors, more Money will flow into Greece and many foreign companies will have to hire and pay Greek personnel


Look at the Maghreb. The Maghreb countries opened up to foreign Enterprise and now companies like Renault, Peugeot, Matra and Airbus have production sites in the Maghreb and have started education and training programs there. To be clear, the 3 countries are far poorer than Greece but try to catch up


the Prime Minister won the second vote in parliament, again with the help of people from the Opposition but with a better majority than last time

Last edited by Wollishofener; 23.07.2015 at 09:23.
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  #147  
Old 23.07.2015, 15:16
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Greece passed new laws this past night to bring the Troika back to the negotiating table. One major issue was new legistlation to speed up court cases. tagesanzeiger.ch (TA) says that this
"will mainly hit real estate owners who are behind with interest payments and/or mortgage payback. In the future, debtors can lose their apartments [the word TA used] if they're behind"

However, my favorite greece newspaper (kathimerini.com) quotes Tsipras saying during the parliamentary debate that "There will be no foreclosures of primary homes" and "The protection of primary residences, by this government, was, is and will be lasting."

Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming.
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  #148  
Old 23.07.2015, 15:40
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Greece passed new laws this past night to bring the Troika back to the negotiating table. One major issue was new legistlation to speed up court cases. tagesanzeiger.ch (TA) says that this
"will mainly hit real estate owners who are behind with interest payments and/or mortgage payback. In the future, debtors can lose their apartments [the word TA used] if they're behind"

However, my favorite greece newspaper (kathimerini.com) quotes Tsipras saying during the parliamentary debate that "There will be no foreclosures of primary homes" and "The protection of primary residences, by this government, was, is and will be lasting."

Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming.
Maybe this means he's after holiday homes.

I don't know about the situation in Greece but in Spain lots of non resident holiday home owners own heaps of taxes. In some cases this is through pure ignorance but some are also playing with fire trusting that they won't get caught. If the authorities fail to collect taxes they simply book the debt onto the land registry deeds and the whole thing either becomes due when the house is sold or is simply passed on to the new owner - which is when the owners start crying blue murder. I got my holiday house dirt cheap because there was a huge burden on unpaid taxes (which of course I settled first thing, and am keeping up with annual payments). The deceptive side is that the tax office doesn't normally send letters inviting people to file a declaration as owners are resposnible for initiating the process. So if you are genuinely unaware of your obligation this can bite you very badly after 20 to 30 years.

If some way could be found to seize properties of people who are in arrears beyond a certain amount and do not appear to be making any active effort to make amends, this would both create an instant positive cashflow for the government whle also incentivizing people to double check they haven't forgotten to make a declaration.
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  #149  
Old 23.07.2015, 15:42
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Greece passed new laws this past night to bring the Troika back to the negotiating table. One major issue was new legistlation to speed up court cases. tagesanzeiger.ch (TA) says that this
"will mainly hit real estate owners who are behind with interest payments and/or mortgage payback. In the future, debtors can lose their apartments [the word TA used] if they're behind"

However, my favorite greece newspaper (kathimerini.com) quotes Tsipras saying during the parliamentary debate that "There will be no foreclosures of primary homes" and "The protection of primary residences, by this government, was, is and will be lasting."




Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming.


I wait for the Moment when Greek SEAports and AIRports are sold
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  #150  
Old 23.07.2015, 16:36
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Maybe this means he's after holiday homes.

I don't know about the situation in Greece but in Spain lots of non resident holiday home owners own heaps of taxes. In some cases this is through pure ignorance but some are also playing with fire trusting that they won't get caught. If the authorities fail to collect taxes they simply book the debt onto the land registry deeds and the whole thing either becomes due when the house is sold or is simply passed on to the new owner - which is when the owners start crying blue murder. I got my holiday house dirt cheap because there was a huge burden on unpaid taxes (which of course I settled first thing, and am keeping up with annual payments). The deceptive side is that the tax office doesn't normally send letters inviting people to file a declaration as owners are resposnible for initiating the process. So if you are genuinely unaware of your obligation this can bite you very badly after 20 to 30 years.

If some way could be found to seize properties of people who are in arrears beyond a certain amount and do not appear to be making any active effort to make amends, this would both create an instant positive cashflow for the government whle also incentivizing people to double check they haven't forgotten to make a declaration.
Yup, I've heard about that. No idea how it's handled in greece, but without ability to seize the primary residence, it seems likely that a similar scheme has been put in place.

People talk. In my mind it's impossible for this to not be known among the locals. I agree that a for a foreigner is likely to be ignorant, for him/her it's just (a potentially very expensive) part of the learning curve.

Without the threat of seizure there's no incentive to pay, especially during tough times. And banks have no way to keep the losses from a given mortgage from increasing. No wonder the banks keep needing recapitalization.

Portion of credits by greek banks for which the payments are at least 90 days late, or that are not being serviced at all:
2011 16%
2012 25%
2013 32%

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I wait for the Moment when Greek SEAports and AIRports are sold
Piraeus Pier 2 has been leased to COSCO since 2008. Pier 2 is buzzing with activity, so much so that Pier 3 got built (or increased?) starting 2011 by COSCO, it become operational earlier this year. Meanwhile, the only thing Pier 1 accumulates is rust.

Perhaps the best option for Greece would be to have foreigners run the country.
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  #151  
Old 26.07.2015, 12:53
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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my favorite greece newspaper (kathimerini.com)
Oh, I see now why you've been saying what you've been saying.
It's not that you are a bad person per se, but rather that you've been reading that thing.

Out of curiosity, how many other Greek newspapers have English versions? My feeling is that this is the only one. Basically you started reading the only major Greek newspaper that has an English version and you suddenly consider yourself knowledgeable about Greeece.
This newspaper, along its sister radio/TV channels (Skai), belongs to one of the most prominent Greek oligarch families. They have been receving EEC/EU funds for decades to get their unprofitable business going. The only thing I would trust from that paper is the weather forecast.

I would also like to point out how in another thread you told me that if I support Varoufakis it is because we are both Greeks, but now I find out that there are Greeks whose opinion you don't reject merely because of their nationality. Apparently Greeks are only allowed to have an opinion if you like it.


PS. I think it's about time we all admit that Varoufakis was right from the very beginning to the very end. Pretty much every respectable economist agrees that the new Greek program is going to fail.
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  #152  
Old 27.07.2015, 08:38
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Oh, I see now why you've been saying what you've been saying.
It's not that you are a bad person per se, but rather that you've been reading that thing.
Out of curiosity, how many other Greek newspapers have English versions? My feeling is that this is the only one.
Stop guessing, you're extremely poor at it. A "favourite" by definition is one of many.
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Basically you started reading the only major Greek newspaper that has an English version and you suddenly consider yourself knowledgeable about Greeece.
LMFAO
You should stop trying to read minds. You're no good at it either.
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This newspaper, along its sister radio/TV channels (Skai), belongs to one of the most prominent Greek oligarch families. They have been receving EEC/EU funds for decades to get their unprofitable business going. The only thing I would trust from that paper is the weather forecast.
In that case it should be trivial to prove them wrong. Yet you dont't
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I would also like to point out how in another thread you told me that if I support Varoufakis it is because we are both Greeks, but now I find out that there are Greeks whose opinion you don't reject merely because of their nationality. Apparently Greeks are only allowed to have an opinion if you like it.
Bullshit. Show me where I said that.

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PS. I think it's about time we all admit that Varoufakis was right from the very beginning to the very end. Pretty much every respectable economist agrees that the new Greek program is going to fail.
Yeah, must be why Krugman last week said he had overestimated them

Last edited by Urs Max; 27.07.2015 at 08:57.
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  #153  
Old 31.07.2015, 17:29
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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I would also like to point out how in another thread you told me that if I support Varoufakis it is because we are both Greeks, but now I find out that there are Greeks whose opinion you don't reject merely because of their nationality. Apparently Greeks are only allowed to have an opinion if you like it.
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Bullshit. Show me where I said that.
Please mind your tongue.
You wrote:
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I think you sum up the greek's position quite well: It's everybody else's fault just not the greek's.
This is the most racist and thing anybody has ever told to me personally with respect to the Greek crisis, and I live in Germany. Basically you dismissed my opinion and my arguments because I am Greek.
But you don't do that when a Greek has an opinion you like.



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PS. I think it's about time we all admit that Varoufakis was right from the very beginning to the very end. Pretty much every respectable economist agrees that the new Greek program is going to fail.
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Yeah, must be why Krugman last week said he had overestimated them
Is Varoufakis "them"?
Krugman had overestimated the Greek government because he thought that they wouldn't sign a bad deal.
Varoufakis was ousted from the Greek government because he refused to sign that bad deal.
So who did Krugman overestimate? Varoufakis or Tsipras and his gang of traitors?
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  #154  
Old 31.07.2015, 17:39
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Please mind your tongue.
You wrote:
This is the most racist and thing anybody has ever told to me personally with respect to the Greek crisis, and I live in Germany. Basically you dismissed my opinion and my arguments because I am Greek.
Nothing that you have quoted from Urs Max supports your scurrilous accusation. You clearly do not know what "racism" is. Also I wouldnt be pretending to know more about Greeks and Greek politicians in your shoes , in the other Greek thread you demonstrated your lack of knowledge on another member of the Syriza party , someone who behaved in a disgraceful manner to protect a convicted rapist from his victims in Greek courts.

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Is Varoufakis "them"?
Krugman had overestimated the Greek government because he thought that they wouldn't sign a bad deal.
Varoufakis was ousted from the Greek government because he refused to sign that bad deal.
So who did Krugman overestimate? Varoufakis or Tsipras and his gang of traitors?
Krugman and Varoufakis have both been proven wrong , Spain and Ireland are now the two fastest growing economies in Europe - so much for the theories of Krugman and Varoufakis...
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...-centrica-live



EDIT: Here's an awesome report of what has happened in Greece during Varoufakis' reign:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...-business-live
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Remember the big mistake? The worst mistake Europe has made so far in the Greek crisis was the decision in mid-2011 to heed bad advice from the IMF and restructure privately-held Greek bonds. Unfortunately, nobody had put adequate defences against contagion in place beforehand. The resulting turmoil in Italian and Spanish bond markets pushed the entire Eurozone into recession within three months. The escalating crisis in its major trading partner scuppered Greece’s chance to recover early from its malaise. Only when the ECB stepped in decisively in the summer of 2012 could confidence in Greece and the Eurozone turn upwards again (see chart).

Once again, debt relief is a big fat red herring. Egged on by celebrity economists from the US and elsewhere who do not seem to understand Europe at all, Greece’s radical left finance minister preached to the world from January onwards that Greece needs massive debt relief, while he started to reverse key supply-side reforms at home. The result of Syriza’s policy reversal is obvious: in late 2014, Greece was on track for Spanish-style growth of 3%. After Varoufakis, the economy has fallen back into deep recession, the banks are bust and Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio looks set to reach 200% in 2016 instead of 165% as it would have without the Syriza follies.

Policies matter much more than debt. If bad policies can raise the projected debt burden by 35 points and push Greek corporate confidence from above average back towards almost record lows (see chart) within seven months, the conclusion is obvious – it takes good policies rather than debt relief to contain and reverse the damage. That the IMF puts so much emphasis on upfront debt relief is outright dangerous. It gets the priorities wrong. And by causing an unnecessary new dispute, it adds to the pervasive uncertainty that is crippling Greece.

Last edited by parnell; 31.07.2015 at 17:57.
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  #155  
Old 31.07.2015, 17:49
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Even if:
But at what rate, at what level,


and - more important - after how many years, please?


Rogoff wasn't even able to use Excel correctly and to do simple maths ...
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  #156  
Old 02.08.2015, 17:42
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

I recently read a very interesting article on the general situation in the "Finanz und Wirtschaft". Essentially, the claim was that corruption, cronyism, poor efficiency and a lot of other stuff were not cause, but consequence of a relatively few root causes:

1) all income goes to national government, which then is distributed among the various entities, be that national government or local schools or anything in between. The consequences:
i) As a consequence, a politicians most important skill is "networking" in order to maximize local/regional income stream. this creates dependencies functioning along the lines of "one hand washes another" and "you don't bite the hand that feeds you"
iii) paying taxes is a drain on the local(regional) economy that has no effect on the resulting income stream, as the latter comes from national government regardless the amount of local taxes paid. Thus it's perfectly rational to not pay taxes, as an individual as well as a local or regional community/group.

2) People vote for the party, not for individuals, voters can't punish someone by voting for another candidate of the same party. The party with the most votes gets a 50-seat bonus, which usually means absolute majority. The winning party automatically has order to form the government, which has multiple means to bypass parliament (checks and balances). Combined with a one-chamber parliament the winner usually has the unchecked(!) power to milk the state for their own good, which is the rational thing to do from a egoistic short-term point of view as nobody knows the outcome of the next elections.
i) as a consequence, essentially all power lies in the hands of the few people at the top of the winning party
ii) there are no personal consequences for failing. If somebody fails but is good at networking they're unlikely to get dropped as everybody relies on everybody else

As a consequence, promises made during election campaigns are irrelevant, which undermines trust in the authorities even further. Networking is much more important than solving problems. Local entities have no resources to experiment with new solutions, which (if successful) could otherwise be adapted on a regional or national level, i.e. no innovation. Politicians aren't punished for poor results hence no pressure to improve.

IMHO the article makes an awful lot of sense and explains a big part of the greek enigma. Food for thought.
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  #157  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:36
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Greek parliament votes to accept a third bailout package worth 85 billion.
EU countries now need to give approval.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33898638

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503530

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503602

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33925709

"Frankly the country has no choice..."
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  #158  
Old 20.08.2015, 19:13
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Greek government gives up and calls snap elections.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34007859

Change of government would mean all previous negotiations are cancelled and they'll have to start again I bet. Yet more meetings by people in high class hotels, eating expensive food while they try and negotiate a new deal. Talk about wasting money!
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  #159  
Old 20.08.2015, 21:20
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

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Greek government gives up and calls snap elections.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34007859

Change of government would mean all previous negotiations are cancelled and they'll have to start again I bet.

No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacta_sunt_servanda
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Old 20.08.2015, 22:25
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Re: Greek referendum - NO wins

Really?

"The improved economic outlook was replaced by a new fourth recession starting in Q4-2014,[84] related to the premature snap parliamentary election called by the Greek parliament in December 2014 and the following formation of a Syriza-led government refusing to respect the terms of its current bailout agreement"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...nt-debt_crisis

Why should a new Greek government continue with the third bailout conditions when most Greeks are unhappy about it. It'll certainly be the main issue in any election, just as it was in the last.
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