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  #61  
Old 24.07.2015, 15:00
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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The embargo 1990-2003 on Iraq from under Hussein is estimated to have caused 500'000 dead children. I haven't seen any estimates on the cost of Iran sanctions, but as they're obviously useful there must be some.

There's a reason why the US are called the devil. Only a fool keeps creating his own enemies.
Instead of giving examples of recent "interference" you try to explain the anti U.S sentiment by bringing an unrelated quote.
The last U.S interference happened more than 60 years ago and helped Iran to achieve 25 years of peace and economical progress. The Shah was a tyrant, but he was far better for the Iranians than the Mullahs.

Whether the U.S made an enemy of Iran or vice-versa is open for debate, but while a fool is someone who creates enemit's, someone who makes his enemies stronger is worse than a fool. Iran will now have a stronger position which will make future negotiations much more difficult, if not impossible.
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  #62  
Old 25.07.2015, 12:59
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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Nevertheless, if several members of German parliament were to shout "death to Jews", there would rightly be an outcry, even if it was just a handful of idiots and not parliament in its entirety.

Has there been an outcry in Iran?

Or if that's too much of a Godwin argument for you, replace the word Jews by some other group.


PERSIA did not kill millions of Jews in gas chambers
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Old 25.07.2015, 15:40
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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PERSIA did not kill millions of Jews in gas chambers

1.5 Million Armenians
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  #64  
Old 25.07.2015, 15:55
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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1.5 Million Armenians

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B..._den_Armeniern

Let me educate you:
Ottoman Empire ≠ Persia
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  #65  
Old 25.07.2015, 17:57
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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The Shah was a tyrant, but he was far better for the Iranians than the Mullahs.
the notion that the US is better suited to determine what is "best" for sovereign peoples in other countries is the root of every failure of US foreign policy since the end of WWII.
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  #66  
Old 25.07.2015, 19:37
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

How long will you keep trotting out this story about U.S intervention?

The U.S and U.K supported the person most suitable for them more than 60 years ago. Basing a policy on this is counter productive. Especially when Iran is openly supporting, arming and training it's allies in other countries.
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Old 25.07.2015, 20:23
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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How long will you keep trotting out this story about U.S intervention?

The U.S and U.K supported the person most suitable for them more than 60 years ago. Basing a policy on this is counter productive. Especially when Iran is openly supporting, arming and training it's allies in other countries.
the US did not "support" anything, it coordinated a coup to overthrow a democratically-elected government. which it then followed up with 25 years of exploitation of natural resources.



fyi, everybody in that part of the world is openly supporting, arming and training its allies in other countries. we Americans are rather fond of taking credit for the weakening of Al Qaeda, when in fact Al Qaeda remained strong until it was foolish enough to conduct terrorist attacks on Saudi soil, which is when the Saudis finally got around to cracking down on the open funding of Al Qaeda by Saudi nationals. we knew perfectly well who was funding Al Qaeda all along, and it sure as wasn't the Afghans or the Iraqis. it also damn sure wasn't the Iranians.

it is the same situation with ISIS, where we will now see more direct suppression of funding (through the oil market and otherwise) by the Turks, who will also use recent ISIS attacks on Turkish soil as an excuse to further suppress the Kurds. again, I'm pretty sure you're not going to suggest to me that the Iranians are the ones funding ISIS.

anybody who thinks that there is a "right" and "wrong" side in the middle east is incredibly, incredibly naive. Iran, however, is the only country in the entire region that has any possible hope of moving toward democracy in my lifetime, save for Israel.
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  #68  
Old 25.07.2015, 23:27
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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the US did not "support" anything, it coordinated a coup to overthrow a democratically-elected government. which it then followed up with 25 years of exploitation of natural resources.


....

anybody who thinks that there is a "right" and "wrong" side in the middle east is incredibly, incredibly naive. Iran, however, is the only country in the entire region that has any possible hope of moving toward democracy in my lifetime, save for Israel.
I think that is the perspective of the current theocrats running Iran, and it is certainly good for westerners to be aware of such perspectives. It may also be compatible with historical perspectives of socialists about that country. But it certainly isn't the only one, even as far as perspectives of other Iranians. There are plenty of Iranians who see it differently.

What I have heard from Iranians is of an on-going struggle to modernise their society. The processed started about a hundred years ago, with Reza Shah, as he attempted to move his country forward. But ran into fierce opposition from religious and conservative peasants, who were threatened by this process of modernization. This force of modernisation was satanic, as far as they were concerned, and is conveniently optimised by the USA, the Great Satan.

I'm not aware of any satanic efforts in the USA to enslave Iranians in some make-shift hell of sorts. Does anyone here know of any? But I do know the USA has always been keenly interested in modernising many parts of the world. This modernism was part of the US value proposition, and many countries have successfully subscribed to it. Many such countries are now thriving and prospering at a much faster pace that the US is itself But in some other parts of the world, it has far too much resistance and opposition for it to develop and bear any fruit.
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Old 26.07.2015, 04:57
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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I'm not aware of any satanic efforts in the USA to enslave Iranians in some make-shift hell of sorts. Does anyone here know of any? But I do know the USA has always been keenly interested in modernising many parts of the world. This modernism was part of the US value proposition, and many countries have successfully subscribed to it. Many such countries are now thriving and prospering at a much faster pace that the US is itself But in some other parts of the world, it has far too much resistance and opposition for it to develop and bear any fruit.
read this:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAE...pendix%20B.pdf

private British interests effectively colonized Iran's oil reserves for the first half of the 20th century, through contract. it will not take you long to google up reports of the living situation in places like Iran in the first half of the 20th century, which should help to explain why the Iranians looked to renegotiate and then void the deal. the complaint of the average Iranian back in the early 50's, after all, probably sounded much like the complaint you will get from the average Saudi today about Exxon. in order to recruit US aid in their efforts to restore the Shah in Iran, the Brits played up the Russia angle and the threat of communism - which itself is ironic since I am reasonably sure it was Russia who helped the Brits in Iran during WWII.

you can also google up information on the "seven sisters" and who ran the world's oil cartel from 1954 to the early 70's. this should further explain who actually benefited from the coup in 1953, i.e. private US and UK business interests, and should for sure explain why the Iranians would think of the US as "satan". it should also serve as a reference guide for what the US has really been doing in the middle east since Desert Storm, since all you have to do is follow the money and who got rich in the last 25 years on the backs of US military lives.

yes, Iran was going to nationalize its oil to void the balance of its contract with the Brits. yes, Iran was trending socialist and was likely a threat to fall more on the Soviet rather than western side of the ledger. so what? the oil belonged to the Iranians, and the trend toward socialism was supported by the Iranian people. the US didn't need Iran on its side in order to push the US Cold War agenda, the US actions in Iran were driven solely by US private business interests and our cursed American need to make other peoples' lives "better". or, as you say, "modernize" other people, basically by stealing their natural resources in exchange for the right to sell them cheeseburgers and pop music.

I'm about as American as they come, and I will defend America to just about the end of the earth. but our actions and policies in Iran have been an abject and complete failure, and more sadly served as the reference point for all of the very many subsequent policy failures we have made in the region since.
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Old 26.07.2015, 05:07
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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1.5 Million Armenians

Negative, Persia was NOT the Turkish Empire
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  #71  
Old 26.07.2015, 12:04
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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How long will you keep trotting out this story about U.S intervention?

The U.S and U.K supported the person most suitable for them more than 60 years ago. Basing a policy on this is counter productive. Especially when Iran is openly supporting, arming and training it's allies in other countries.
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Instead of giving examples of recent "interference" you try to explain the anti U.S sentiment by bringing an unrelated quote.
The last U.S interference happened more than 60 years ago and helped Iran to achieve 25 years of peace and economical progress. The Shah was a tyrant, but he was far better for the Iranians than the Mullahs.

Whether the U.S made an enemy of Iran or vice-versa is open for debate, but while a fool is someone who creates enemit's, someone who makes his enemies stronger is worse than a fool. Iran will now have a stronger position which will make future negotiations much more difficult, if not impossible.
Last time I checked the sanctions on Iran are still in place. If that's not recent nothing is.
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  #72  
Old 26.07.2015, 17:19
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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read this:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAE...pendix%20B.pdf

....

... as they come, and I will defend America to just about the end of the earth. but our actions and policies in Iran have been an abject and complete failure, and more sadly served as the reference point for all of the very many subsequent policy failures we have made in the region since.
I believe the US applied the same template of actions, or Modus Operandi in Asia, Latin America, Africa, and the ME. The CIA is an information collection agency whose real focus is in the tracking of natural resources, and how to ensure the spice flows throughout the rest of the world. In just about every case, they develop assets and contacts with locals on the ground they can cooperate with. Meaning a lot of the things you attribute as having been done by the US are really things committed by Iranians themselves. The Shah was Iranian, not American. There are many Iranians who disagree with how Iran is positioned today. I don't believe this is purely a US vs. Iran issue. This issue is about the current Iranian government vs. the World and even its own people.
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  #73  
Old 26.07.2015, 19:59
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei tweeted a pic of presumably Obama with a gun to his head today and calling the US criminal. Not sure what to make of it. Probably more confused that the Ayatollah "tweets" more than anything else, LOL There also doesn't seem to be much "warm fuzzy" stuff going on with Iran/US. Actually, for a "spiritual leader" he seems kind of angry

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...head/30667081/


https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir

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Old 26.07.2015, 20:59
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

When was the last time Iran attacked another country? When was the last time the US did?

From a July 18 tweet by Khamenei:
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Old 26.07.2015, 21:51
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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When was the last time Iran attacked another country? When was the last time the US did?
Iran runs covert operations and proxy wars in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. A peaceful country? Yea, if you don't really look too closely at it.
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Old 27.07.2015, 04:05
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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I believe the US applied the same template of actions, or Modus Operandi in Asia, Latin America, Africa, and the ME. The CIA is an information collection agency whose real focus is in the tracking of natural resources, and how to ensure the spice flows throughout the rest of the world. In just about every case, they develop assets and contacts with locals on the ground they can cooperate with. Meaning a lot of the things you attribute as having been done by the US are really things committed by Iranians themselves. The Shah was Iranian, not American. There are many Iranians who disagree with how Iran is positioned today. I don't believe this is purely a US vs. Iran issue. This issue is about the current Iranian government vs. the World and even its own people.
what you have described here are covert operations and the running of proxy wars, which is exactly the same thing that we are supposed to hate Iran for.

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Iran runs covert operations and proxy wars in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. A peaceful country? Yea, if you don't really look too closely at it.
the Saudis ran covert operations and a proxy war in the US, and we still cozy up to them every chance we get.

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Old 27.07.2015, 09:11
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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what you have described here are covert operations and the running of proxy wars, which is exactly the same thing that we are supposed to hate Iran for.

the Saudis ran covert operations and a proxy war in the US, and we still cozy up to them every chance we get.

So that logic there is that two wrongs make a right? Or don't look too closely and stay in ignorant bliss?
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Old 27.07.2015, 16:00
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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So that logic there is that two wrongs make a right? Or don't look too closely and stay in ignorant bliss?
I vote for stay in ignorant bliss. The world is a much happier place with your head in the sand. No stress down there. Every now I then I come out to look around, get angry, wave my fist in the air while shouting obscenities but nothing ever happens. Nothing gets resolved by yelling on the Internet. We can only influence our own behavior and not someone else's.

Life is a beach, so use the sand wisely.
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Old 27.07.2015, 16:46
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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Nothing gets resolved by yelling on the Internet.

“That's what's so great about the Internet. It allows pompous blow-hards to connect with other pompous blow-hards in a vast circle-jerk of pomposity.”

― Bill Maher
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Old 27.07.2015, 16:47
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Re: Iran nuclear talks: 'Historic' agreement struck

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So that logic there is that two wrongs make a right? Or don't look too closely and stay in ignorant bliss?
you're missing a pretty critical distinction - the US ran covert operations and a proxy war in Iran. nobody is accusing Iran of running covert operations or a proxy war in the US.



if our US government wants us to continue to support a sanctions regime against Iran so that we can continue to run covert operations and proxy wars in the middle east in order to continue to have cheap access to oil, then it should say so. but that is entirely different than continuing to support a sanctions regime against Iran because the Iranians are "evil", "terrorists" or just plain "wrong".

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“That's what's so great about the Internet. It allows pompous blow-hards to connect with other pompous blow-hards in a vast circle-jerk of pomposity.”

― Bill Maher
the irony of this statement coming from Bill Maher just made my day.
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