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  #21  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:24
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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I'm glad that Sturgeon is coming out as a liar on these relatively minor issues.
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I agree, but voting on laws that are only applicable to England is not right for the Scottish people - it is at best irrelevant, and at worst bad because it is clearly unfair and therefore increases divisions in the UK that the Scots just voted to limit to a range of devolution items.
....
I guess it doesn't fit the narrative to acknowledge Labour asked for the SNP's help then?
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  #22  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:30
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Fox hunting involves far less cruelty (number of foxes killed, which anyway are likely to be killed for pest control reasons)
Erm, really? the whole point is not the number of foxes killed but the way it is done - making a fox run till it collapses out of exhaustion and then get it bitten to death is in no way less cruel than your butcher shooting a pig with a bolt gun.
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  #23  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:35
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Erm, really? the whole point is not the number of foxes killed but the way it is done - making a fox run till it collapses out of exhaustion and then get it bitten to death is in no way less cruel than your butcher shooting a pig with a bolt gun.
Really? The fox lives a normal life until the moment it dies.

A farm animal is kept in appalling conditions for its entire lifetime until it is slaughtered. Some never even see daylight.

In my view, farming is far more cruel.

Look at it this way: would you rather be crammed into cages barely bigger than you and kept in the dark your whole life until, say, you were 25 and then killed? Or allowed to live a normal life until one day you were hunted and killed? [although since humans have no natural predators, the equivalent may be more like being run over by a car in an accident]

Even for humans, where, unlike animals, we don't spend our lives in fear and running from predators, I think the latter option is far more preferable.
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  #24  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:36
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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I totally agree. I don't care about fox hunting.

What I do care about is her saying she will abstain on an issue and then not doing that. Just like she wouldn't rule out another referendum in the near future during the election campaign and just told people not to vote for them if they don't want Scottish independence.
Yes and no. I (personally) want my MPs to take moral standpoints. You can say Scottish MPs shouldn't be voting on English issues, but sometimes, they really have to vote with consciences. For an extreme example, if you replaced "Fox Hunting" with "Jew Hunting" - I think that I would be expecting the SNP to absolutely vote against that, you too I suspect, so your real question is where is the line between expediency and morality?
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  #25  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:41
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Do you see why any moral human would be against a ban on animal farming and eating meat?
A valid argument, for sure.

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I can see good reasons for such a ban and may even admit that supporters of such a ban may have the ethical high-ground. Fox hunting involves far less cruelty (number of foxes killed, which anyway are likely to be killed for pest control reasons)
Not so valid for me - numbers killed has very little to do with cruelty. Cruelty is the type of death something is forced to endure

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Even Tony Blair admitted he was wrong to introduce the ban and admitted he had no clue about the countryside and its importance until he spoke to a woman involved and then afterwards resolved to hobble the ban legislation he put in place (and told the home secretary not to enforce it).
Ah, good old Tony Blair, he is definitely not a disgraced warmonger and is someone we should definitely take advice from.
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  #26  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:42
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Yes and no. I (personally) want my MPs to take moral standpoints. You can say Scottish MPs shouldn't be voting on English issues, but sometimes, they really have to vote with consciences. For an extreme example, if you replaced "Fox Hunting" with "Jew Hunting" - I think that I would be expecting the SNP to absolutely vote against that, you too I suspect, so your real question is where is the line between expediency and morality?
My issue is with her saying one thing and doing another. If she said she will vote on English laws on a case by case basis then I'd be fine with that.
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  #27  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:46
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Unlike the US, in the UK foxes don't have many natural predators, so their population has to be managed by humans. In a sense, fox hunting is in itself a by product of the food industry.

Here's what the Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management has to say:

http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.or...d=15&Itemid=29

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The UK fox population is estimated to be some 240,000 (pre-breeding) of which 14% are in urban locations. Some 425,000 cubs are born each year and clearly unless the population is to increase, a similar number of foxes must die each year.

The fox is almost without predators in the UK other than man so that unless the population is managed with up to 68% of the post-breeding population culled:

Numbers of foxes will rise progressively
Predation on vulnerable livestock will increase and become unacceptable in some areas.

The level of predation on game and other ground-nesting birds will increase
Nuisance behaviours, e.g. digging and defaecating in suburban gardens, will become more commonplace.
Death will only occur through disease, starvation or injury.

In the absence of management by man (“leaving it to nature”) fox numbers will only plateau when shortage of food as a result of overpopulation and disease suppress reproductive activity or a significant rise in mortality results. This does not represent a healthy vigorous population.

Foxes potentially carry a number of significant diseases transmissible to man and domestic animals including rabies, canine distemper, alveolar echinococciosis, angiostrongylosis and sarcoptic mange (see ref Simpson, 2010 below).

Control of the urban fox can only be achieved by a continuous programme of trapping and humane destruction. Urban foxes, which have lost their instinctive fear of humans, are more amenable to trapping than rural foxes. The practice of dumping trapped urban foxes in the countryside where they are unable to survive is both inhumane and harmful owing to the possibility of cross infection from urban to wild.

The combination of shooting, snaring and hunting as was practised in varying degrees across the country represented a well-tried management system for the rural fox that would be very difficult to improve. Since the banning in England, Wales and Scotland of hunting with hounds, wildlife managers have regrettably been forced to rely more heavily on the less humane and less selective methods of control namely snaring and shooting. But if biodiversity is to be preserved fox numbers must be controlled. The current campaign by single issue animal rights organisations to ban snares is therefore not in the interest of biodiversity in particular the conservation of ground-nesting birds such as curlews, golden plovers and lapwings.

The majority of rural foxes culled in the UK are shot using a rifle. But wounding rates using a rifle can be up to 48% and for a shotgun as high as 60%. Although killing rates increase with the skill of the marksmen, wounding rates do not decrease (ref 2003).

Non-lethal (artificial) methods of population control, such as the laying of contraceptive baits, which are attractive to research groups and single issue organisations, would be impractical, expensive and ethically and biologically questionable. Furthermore they would pose a risk to other wild and domestic species.

The dispersal effect of hunting is valuable in preventing concentrations of foxes in areas where there are vulnerable livestock (ref 2002b).

Hunting provides a vital search and dispatch system for detecting debilitated, wounded and diseased animals in the countryside (ref 2002b)

Conclusion

Prior to the Hunting Act the rural fox population was in good shape precisely because it was managed. Now the rural fox is persecuted as a pest and the population is suffering as a result. The moderation ethic has been lost (ref. J.C.Reynolds 2000, Fox control in the countryside).

Hunting with hounds is a vital and essential tool in wildlife management which should be returned to the countryside (ref 2012).
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  #28  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:48
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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My issue is with her saying one thing and doing another. If she said she will vote on English laws on a case by case basis then I'd be fine with that.
I think she said she would vote on English laws if they affected Scotland.

Could quite conceivably see some rabid, foaming at the mouth hunters chasing a poor wee fox across the border...something tells me they wouldn't call off the hunt however.
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Old 15.07.2015, 12:49
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Not so valid for me - numbers killed has very little to do with cruelty. Cruelty is the type of death something is forced to endure
But hunting with hounds is similar to how they naturally die with predators such as wolves and coyotes. While in our minds it is horrific, it is also relatively quick.

Now less humane methods are required to control foxes which often leave them injured and suffering from those injuries until they die.
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Old 15.07.2015, 12:49
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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But hunting with hounds is similar to how they naturally die with predators such as wolves and coyotes. While in our minds it is horrific, it is also relatively quick.

Now less humane methods are required to control foxes which often leave them injured and suffering from those injuries until they die.
How many Wolves or Coyotes are there in Shropshire exactly?
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  #31  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:59
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Unlike the US, in the UK foxes don't have many natural predators, so their population has to be managed by humans. In a sense, fox hunting is in itself a by product of the food industry.
Don't disagree with that, but there are certainly more humane ways of culling things than the grotesque anachronistic pantomime that is Fox Hunting in its current form.
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  #32  
Old 15.07.2015, 13:04
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Now less humane methods are required to control foxes which often leave them injured and suffering from those injuries until they die.
What are they doing to them then?

Hunting foxes with hounds is a rather English tradition. Guess what: the rest of Europe has foxes as well and they are hunted too. The typical German fox hunt looks like this: Hunter sits in a hideout with his night-vision goggles on, waits till fox shows up... shoots it.

But of course can you then not show off you lovely riding jacket on your lovely horse and make the whole affair a Sunday afternoon thing for the upper class... and I think that's what's pissing people off.
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  #33  
Old 15.07.2015, 13:19
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Hunting foxes with hounds is a rather English tradition. Guess what: the rest of Europe has foxes as well and they are hunted too. The typical German fox hunt looks like this: Hunter sits in a hideout with his night-vision goggles on, waits till fox shows up... shoots it.


Doesn't mean to say it's any more humane than hunting with hounds though does it? Do German hunters deliberately target weak, sick or elderly animals? Are German hunters any more skilled than British hunters so that they can guarantee an immediate lethal shot? Don't forget too, that the UK is an island, so the fox population is more restricted than those of continental European countries.
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:21
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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My issue is with her saying one thing and doing another. .
That is what politicians do. (And get paid for)
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:27
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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What are they doing to them then?

Hunting foxes with hounds is a rather English tradition. Guess what: the rest of Europe has foxes as well and they are hunted too. The typical German fox hunt looks like this: Hunter sits in a hideout with his night-vision goggles on, waits till fox shows up... shoots it.

But of course can you then not show off you lovely riding jacket on your lovely horse and make the whole affair a Sunday afternoon thing for the upper class... and I think that's what's pissing people off.
Not only the "upper classes". I knew some who rode with the South Wolds Hunt. Farm lads and lasses who always turned up at the local Gymkhanas and had a good day out on the Boxing day hunt. Rarely even saw a fox. One woman was a vegetarian.
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:28
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Not only the "upper classes". I knew some who rode with the South Wolds Hunt. Farm lads and lasses who always turned up at the local Gymkhanas and had a good day out on the Boxing day hunt. Rarely even saw a fox. One woman was a vegetarian.
Same here; not many aristocrats in north Cornwall, most were farmers.
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:29
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Just my two cents worth here.

If fox populations are on the increase, it is because they are getting easier access to food. If a farmer loses chickens to foxes because he isn't repairing the chicken wire as often as he should, is fox hunting really the best solution?

Ditto with urban foxes going into dustbins. Surely its not rocket science to design a fox-proof dustbin? And as for foxes living off the litter people drop, again, is it better to educate people not to litter or just to go after the symptom which is the fox?
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:44
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Don't disagree with that, but there are certainly more humane ways of culling things than the grotesque anachronistic pantomime that is Fox Hunting in its current form.
Fox control has been developed over hundreds of years by people intimately involved and knowledgeable in the countryside.

If there is a more humane way, then please feel free to share it.

I find it remarkable that many city dwellers who have very little experience in the country, who have never been to a hunt, nor have any idea about the local eco-system think they have all the answers.
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Old 15.07.2015, 13:48
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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What are they doing to them then?
Shooting them.

For some reason, clueless city dwellers mistakenly think that shooting is more humane.
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  #40  
Old 15.07.2015, 13:51
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Just my two cents worth here.

If fox populations are on the increase, it is because they are getting easier access to food. If a farmer loses chickens to foxes because he isn't repairing the chicken wire as often as he should, is fox hunting really the best solution?

Ditto with urban foxes going into dustbins. Surely its not rocket science to design a fox-proof dustbin? And as for foxes living off the litter people drop, again, is it better to educate people not to litter or just to go after the symptom which is the fox?
with few natural predators, the fox population will grow to the detriment of bio-diversity and also their own gene-stock.

outside of fox control, you also see human control of certain apex-predator birds to manage their population and genetic diversity.
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