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  #41  
Old 15.07.2015, 13:55
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Yes and no. I (personally) want my MPs to take moral standpoints. You can say Scottish MPs shouldn't be voting on English issues, but sometimes, they really have to vote with consciences. For an extreme example, if you replaced "Fox Hunting" with "Jew Hunting" - I think that I would be expecting the SNP to absolutely vote against that, you too I suspect, so your real question is where is the line between expediency and morality?
I think its dangerous to twist the ends to substantiate the means.

If the Westminster parliament were to vote on "Jew hunting" in England and Wales, I think we would need to start asking constitutional questions over why such a topic was even allowed to come up for a vote and challenging the legality of the vote before the courts. If you take part in an unlawful vote you are only underpinning its legality, and even if you vote no, you are providing a veneer of correct process and legality for the final outcome, even if the other side wins.

If "Jew hunting" came up for a vote, I would be expecting my MP to make as much noise as possible to prevent the vote from even taking place. Purely voting no would not be good enough.
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  #42  
Old 15.07.2015, 14:20
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

It is probably worth mentioning that foxes look really cute

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  #43  
Old 15.07.2015, 14:28
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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It is probably worth mentioning that foxes look really cute
Really?
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  #44  
Old 15.07.2015, 14:31
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Fox control has been developed over hundreds of years by people intimately involved and knowledgeable in the countryside.

If there is a more humane way, then please feel free to share it.

I find it remarkable that many city dwellers who have very little experience in the country, who have never been to a hunt, nor have any idea about the local eco-system think they have all the answers.
I grew up in a tiny village (~100 people) in deepest, darkest Shropshire. I went to a very posh school and both intimately know the practices and the people involved. It is basically bullfighting for people too scared to get gored, as it might ruin their champagne dinner afterwards.

As mentioned before, I have no issues with culling animals that need to be culled, as foxes often do. As pointed out previously, you need a hunter (maybe a farmer) to put bait out, wait until night, then shoot them. You don't need a gaggle of horses and hooray Henry's tearing up the countryside and torturing an animal for sport.
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  #45  
Old 15.07.2015, 14:34
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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As mentioned before, I have no issues with culling animals that need to be culled, as foxes often do. As pointed out previously, you need a hunter (maybe a farmer) to put bait out, wait until night, then shoot them. You don't need a gaggle of horses and hooray Henry's tearing up the countryside and torturing an animal for sport.
Tried that - but they took offence to me using an M2 Browning.
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  #46  
Old 15.07.2015, 14:37
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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I think its dangerous to twist the ends to substantiate the means.

If the Westminster parliament were to vote on "Jew hunting" in England and Wales, I think we would need to start asking constitutional questions over why such a topic was even allowed to come up for a vote and challenging the legality of the vote before the courts. If you take part in an unlawful vote you are only underpinning its legality, and even if you vote no, you are providing a veneer of correct process and legality for the final outcome, even if the other side wins.

If "Jew hunting" came up for a vote, I would be expecting my MP to make as much noise as possible to prevent the vote from even taking place. Purely voting no would not be good enough.
Even if your MP was a Scottish one, trying to block this English law?

Hypocritical if that is the case.
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  #47  
Old 15.07.2015, 15:04
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Yes and no. I (personally) want my MPs to take moral standpoints. You can say Scottish MPs shouldn't be voting on English issues, but sometimes, they really have to vote with consciences. For an extreme example, if you replaced "Fox Hunting" with "Jew Hunting" - I think that I would be expecting the SNP to absolutely vote against that, you too I suspect, so your real question is where is the line between expediency and morality?
I agree with this - but in a democracy where the representation is indirect, there can be no higher moral requirement than to vote the way you specifically promised, otherwise the whole thing fails.

One of the reasons why people distrust politicians is because this isn't always the case (although a bigger reason is that many people are lazy and stupid and have no idea what their politicians have promised anyway).

There may be exceptions where a specific promise (not voting on something) is overridden by an even more imperative morality (like your example); but I don't honestly think fox hunting would count for that here.
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  #48  
Old 15.07.2015, 15:30
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Current Scottish law allows multiple dogs to attack a fox, when it is underground in it's lair, it's home.

Current English law allows only 2 dogs to encourage a fox to come out of the home, or lair, when it is then shot, not hounded.

So it isn't a big thank you to Nicola Sturgeon, is it?
Quote from Nicola Sturgeon
"Second reason is that this debate has thrown a spotlight on to Scotland's hunting law. It's made a lot of people think we should be tightening up our law to bring it in to line with England's law as it stands."
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  #49  
Old 15.07.2015, 15:34
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Justification why foxes need to be controlled
...
Notable by it's absence is a justification why if foxes need to be controlled then it needs to be done by swivel eyed loons dressing up and having a party amidst the slaughter.

You *might* have to kill them, you definitely don't have to enjoy it or teach children to enjoy it.
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  #50  
Old 15.07.2015, 15:54
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Notable by it's absence is a justification why if foxes need to be controlled then it needs to be done by swivel eyed loons dressing up and having a party amidst the slaughter.

You *might* have to kill them, you definitely don't have to enjoy it or teach children to enjoy it.
I didn't think the labour party went fox hunting

You're rather fond of hyperbole aren't you?
2,000 people gassed at one time is slaughter
A few vermin killled by dogs isn't.

(Lights touchpaper and retires to a safe distance)
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  #51  
Old 15.07.2015, 15:57
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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I didn't think the labour party went fox hunting

You're rather fond of hyperbole aren't you?
2,000 people gassed at one time is slaughter
A few vermin killled by dogs isn't.

(Lights touchpaper and retires to a safe distance)
I think I used it correctly.

slaughter
noun
1.
the killing or butchering of cattle, sheep, etc., especially for food.
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  #52  
Old 15.07.2015, 16:30
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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I think I used it correctly.

slaughter
noun
1.
the killing or butchering of cattle, sheep, etc., especially for food.
noun
1. the killing or butchering of cattle, sheep, etc., especially for food.
2. the brutal or violent killing of a person.
3. the killing of great numbers of people or animals indiscriminately; carnage: the slaughter of war.


verb (used with object)
4. to kill or butcher (animals), especially for food.
5. to kill in a brutal or violent manner.
6. to slay in great numbers; massacre.
7. Informal. to defeat thoroughly; trounce:

Perhaps if you quoted the full definition you'd realise how flimsy your argument is. You slaughter a chicken for food (#1), you don't slaughter a fox.

The slaughter of foxes would be #3 - but that would require a "great number" - a few is not a great number, but I think it safe to say 2,000 would be
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  #53  
Old 15.07.2015, 16:34
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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noun
1. the killing or butchering of cattle, sheep, etc., especially for food.
2. the brutal or violent killing of a person.
3. the killing of great numbers of people or animals indiscriminately; carnage: the slaughter of war.


verb (used with object)
4. to kill or butcher (animals), especially for food.
5. to kill in a brutal or violent manner.
6. to slay in great numbers; massacre.
7. Informal. to defeat thoroughly; trounce:

Perhaps if you quoted the full definition you'd realise how flimsy your argument is. You slaughter a chicken for food (#1), you don't slaughter a fox.

The slaughter of foxes would be #3 - but that would require a "great number" - a few is not a great number, but I think it safe to say 2,000 would be
awesome, you went to look it up, that amused me. The inclusion of 'etc' and 'especially' allows me to use it in this case. Have another go, you aren't doing very well so far.
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  #54  
Old 15.07.2015, 16:38
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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awesome, you went to look it up, that amused me. The inclusion of 'etc' and 'especially' allows me to use it in this case. Have another go, you aren't doing very well so far.
It appears you looked it up too.
I think dk is doing far better than you in this respect.
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Old 15.07.2015, 16:43
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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It appears you looked it up too and selectively quoted the portion you felt would vaguely support your hyperbole
I think dk is doing far better than you in this respect.


To be honest, I was waiting for Reids to profer the idea that once the foxes have been ritually slaughtered, the blood drunk and with the whole "hunt" dressed in tight trousers, leather boots and whips, it descending into an orgy of wanton lust.

I am beginning to suspect that Islington's labour luvvies were more upset about not getting an invite than the animal cruelty

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Old 15.07.2015, 16:56
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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It appears you looked it up too.
I think dk is doing far better than you in this respect.
Only if you think the correct use of the word is hyperbole, which it isn't. There was no selective quoting, I quoted the one noun example that applied to the use I intended, not the irrelevant ones, and definitely not the verbs.
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Old 15.07.2015, 17:01
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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Only if you think the correct use of the word is hyperbole, which it isn't. There was no selective quoting, I quoted the one noun example that applied to the use I intended, not the irrelevant ones, and definitely not the verbs.
You butcher foxes for food?
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  #58  
Old 15.07.2015, 17:19
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

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You butcher foxes for food?
To be fair, ReidS' quote, if read using eyes and a brain to filter the irrelevant details says:
the killing [or butchering] of [cattle, sheep,] etc[., especially for food].

So:
The killing of etc, which can assume to be any other type of animal. So less semantics, we all know what we're talking about here.

To be honest, we can probably close this thread as it boils down to one of 2 things:
1. I like the SNP and this move.
2. I don't like the SNP and therefore don't like this move.
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Old 15.07.2015, 17:26
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

These things are actually independent - I don't like the SNP, and don't like this move, but the two aren't linked.

I also know someone who likes the SNP but doesn't like this move, and someone previously posted that they don't like the SNP but do like the move.

Oh the joys of multi-party federal democracy.
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Old 15.07.2015, 17:57
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Re: Thank fox for the SNP

I was going to give 4 possible variables, but then realised that 2 basically covered most people who were being honest.
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