Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,348
Groaned at 219 Times in 150 Posts
Thanked 3,874 Times in 1,544 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
I was going to give 4 possible variables, but then realised that 2 basically covered most people who were being honest.
I'm not very keen on the SNP but only because of their desire for independence. They've done a lot of good for Scotland (Tuition fees, prescription charges etc. etc. ) but their raison d'etre is an independent Scotland which I'm well against.

Example is Mhairi Black who made an amazing maiden speech. She does mention in this speech about the Labour party leaving people behind rather than people leaving the Labour party which will ring true for many many Scots.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-maiden-speech
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank porsch1909 for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:07
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
I grew up in a tiny village (~100 people) in deepest, darkest Shropshire. I went to a very posh school and both intimately know the practices and the people involved. It is basically bullfighting for people too scared to get gored, as it might ruin their champagne dinner afterwards.

As mentioned before, I have no issues with culling animals that need to be culled, as foxes often do. As pointed out previously, you need a hunter (maybe a farmer) to put bait out, wait until night, then shoot them. You don't need a gaggle of horses and hooray Henry's tearing up the countryside and torturing an animal for sport.
Unfortunately, for whatever other motivations, some parties have tried to cast the discussion into a toffs vs other debate, which I think greatly detracts from the discussion. Sure, I think some people will say, "I think rich people do it, therefore I will am against it."

As noted by the Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management, hunting is more humane than shooting and the death is near instant. It is more selective in picking up weaker foxes and also has the benefit of driving out concentrations of foxes.

As noted in their submission to the select committee, wounding rates for shooting are about 50% which means about half the time, the foxes are injured and suffer.

No doubt there is a social/cultural element to the tradition and I can fully understand that people object to that. But in this case, I think it is not objectionable as it is not purely for entertainment (c.f. bullfighting) and does not add to the suffering of the foxes and has advantages as I mentioned in the previous posts and linked documents.
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #63  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:14
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,862
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,221 Times in 935 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

If you believe this research then Phil, and I also have no reason to doubt the veracity of the publication you quote, then surely you must agree that the best way to cull foxes is for professionals to use dogs to flush hounds out, then shoot them?

Having somebody untrained in the use of guns tottering about on top of a horse trying to recreate the Crimean War isn't exactly the most accurate or efficient way of doing things?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank StirB for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:25
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
If you believe this research then Phil, and I also have no reason to doubt the veracity of the publication you quote, then surely you must agree that the best way to cull foxes is for professionals to use dogs to flush hounds out, then shoot them?
On the contrary, the best way would be for the dogs to kill them.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
This user groans at Phil_MCR for this post:
  #65  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:25
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,862
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,221 Times in 935 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

So now, not only are you causing a painful and slow death for the foxes, you are endangering the dogs too by making them fight to the death?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank StirB for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:36
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
So now, not only are you causing a painful and slow death for the foxes, you are endangering the dogs too by making them fight to the death?
You should realise that the dogs kill the foxes almost instantly. That's one reason why hunting with dogs is considered more humane than shooting. It appears your objections to fox hunting are founded on mis-conceptions and a dislike of "hooray Henrys".

There isn't a 'fight to the death'. The dogs are hugely advantaged.

In cases where foxes are shot and wounded, the dogs are able to follow-up for the quick kill.

Other dogs are also used to keep foxes in their holes and then they can be dug out and shot at point-blank range ensuring a quick and painless kill.

Maybe take a look at this for more information: http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.or...VetOpinion.pdf

EDIT: I quote for your convenience part of that document which is supported by some 400 members of the Royal College of Veterinary
Surgeons:

Quote:
The kill occurs as a swift, almost instantaneous, procedure made possible by the considerable power weight advantage the hound has over the fox. The powerful exercise-induced analgesic actions of centrally released endorphins and encephalins, generated during the hunt, will mitigate or eliminate any pain.
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:48
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,862
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,221 Times in 935 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Maybe take a look at this for more information: http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.or...VetOpinion.pdf

EDIT: I quote for your convenience part of that document which is supported by some 400 members of the Royal College of Veterinary
Surgeons:
Aside from the fact that the vet who wrote this is rather county-set, from his cottage in Berkshire, what do you make of his assertion in the first paragraph, underpinning his whole argument...

The natural death of such a wild animal will occur by starvation, disease or injury, none of which can be described as humane.

This seems to me a totally nonsensical statement, unless old age, is in fact a disease or injury.

The fact that 400 / tens of thousands signed it, is fairly irrelevant, had it been a factual study, I am sure the BVA itself would have signed it off.

Your quote at the end is also slightly puzzling - it implies it wouldn't be too bad a way to go for a human to be torn apart by a bear or tiger...that's not my ideal send off to be honest.
__________________
www.pubquiz.ch - for all your Quiz needs!
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 15.07.2015, 18:58
Bozza's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 446
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 290 Times in 157 Posts
Bozza has made some interesting contributions
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
How many Wolves or Coyotes are there in Shropshire exactly?
I donno but if you walk the streets of London after dark you see a fox every other day... some are very tame, in that they will allow you to get to 5-10 away. And the occasional one will try and eat a baby #thesunsaidso
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Bozza for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 15.07.2015, 19:28
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,274
Groaned at 215 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 16,487 Times in 6,020 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Are German hunters any more skilled than British hunters so that they can guarantee an immediate lethal shot?
Of course.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 15.07.2015, 19:42
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 10,970
Groaned at 542 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 10,577 Times in 5,409 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
What utter tripe!

Dogs in Scotland are NOT allowed to attack a fox, only flush them out onto guns.

Do you think Sturgeon and the SNP made the current Scottish laws? Try again. They are currently in the process of reviewing and tightening them, so let's not try to make out she's trying to make the poor English suffer, out of spite, when in fact she is trying to make life better for animals in general.

I can't see why any moral human being would be against that, but then again I don't go out on horseback with my dogs to terrify and slaughter animals...tally ho!
It might make you look better if you check the facts before using pen,

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-conservatives

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_hunting
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 15.07.2015, 19:44
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Aside from the fact that the vet who wrote this is rather county-set, from his cottage in Berkshire, what do you make of his assertion in the first paragraph, underpinning his whole argument...

The natural death of such a wild animal will occur by starvation, disease or injury, none of which can be described as humane.

This seems to me a totally nonsensical statement, unless old age, is in fact a disease or injury.

The fact that 400 / tens of thousands signed it, is fairly irrelevant, had it been a factual study, I am sure the BVA itself would have signed it off.

Your quote at the end is also slightly puzzling - it implies it wouldn't be too bad a way to go for a human to be torn apart by a bear or tiger...that's not my ideal send off to be honest.
You are right and given the obvious biases, the document should be taken with a pinch of salt. Though given the number of supporters and the professional ethics, I assume that any biases don't lead to deliberate mis-information.

But I thought that the remark you refer to is basic biology/common sense: without a natural predator, the numbers will grow exponentially until starvation/disease will be the main death factor and which will prejudice the welfare of the whole fox population.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:00
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,862
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,221 Times in 935 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
It might make you look better if you check the facts before using pen,

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-conservatives

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_hunting
Would you like to suggest what my error might be?
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:05
StirB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,862
Groaned at 45 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 2,221 Times in 935 Posts
StirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond reputeStirB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
You are right and given the obvious biases, the document should be taken with a pinch of salt. Though given the number of supporters and the professional ethics, I assume that any biases don't lead to deliberate mis-information.
Not suggesting that, but I am sure it is convenient to latch onto something like this to confirm bias.

Quote:
View Post
But I thought that the remark you refer to is basic biology/common sense: without a natural predator, the numbers will grow exponentially until starvation/disease will be the main death factor and which will prejudice the welfare of the whole fox population.
In my opinion, there is one thing wrong with your assumption...they would only grow exponentially if there is enough food (and territory) for them to do so. Polar bears don't have many predators, but somehow they aren't crammed nose to nose on every northern ice patch

To be honest, the natural food web more or less sorts this out without our influence, overpopulation results in starvation until the system finds equilibrium. If bins are locked and chickens cooped, there's not too much food going spare to allow fox overpopulating.
__________________
www.pubquiz.ch - for all your Quiz needs!
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:10
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
If bins are locked
... and the place is tidy ...

We're still talking about the UK remember, not CH. Foxes aren't in any danger of starving around most of the semi-rural English villages I've seen, with bins overflowing and fast food dropped around.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:27
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Risch
Posts: 128
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
KiwiSteve has earned some respectKiwiSteve has earned some respect
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of fox hunting, Scottish MPs voting on a purely English law is fundamentally hypocritical.

They had a referendum on independence which resulted in a no vote, but still got a new law with significantly more devolution.

It's pure political manoevering and dishonesty; my previous respect for Sturgeon is now gone, she's not really the honest straight spoken representative she pretents to be, as bad as Alex Salmond now.
Hi,
You show little understanding of scottish or northern english sensibilities.
I look forward to a new Hadrian's wall, just a little north of the Watford gap. This new Land will look forward to a bright future within Europe, plenty of wind power and will of course, be a haven for foxes ( there will be a good business catering for tourists coming to photograph them)
Cheers
PS
Looking forward to the world cup later on this year - another nail in your coffin?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank KiwiSteve for this useful post:
This user groans at KiwiSteve for this post:
  #76  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:34
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Hi,
You show little understanding of scottish or northern english sensibilities.
I look forward to a new Hadrian's wall, just a little north of the Watford gap. This new Land will look forward to a bright future within Europe, plenty of wind power and will of course, be a haven for foxes ( there will be a good business catering for tourists coming to photograph them)
Cheers
PS
Looking forward to the world cup later on this year - another nail in your coffin?
You're speaking from deep experience as a Kiwi? As opposed to someone who has lived and worked in both of those places for 40 years or so, and still has a large number of friends and relations there who discuss these things?

Most of the Scottish people I know haven't got a clue about the West Lothian question, and the "northern" English ones are deeply pissed off about it. They may not be particularly happy about a Tory government, but they sure as hell don't want Scots voting on English things.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank newtoswitz for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:46
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Risch
Posts: 128
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 57 Times in 43 Posts
KiwiSteve has earned some respectKiwiSteve has earned some respect
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
You're speaking from deep experience as a Kiwi? As opposed to someone who has lived and worked in both of those places for 40 years or so, and still has a large number of friends and relations there who discuss these things?

Most of the Scottish people I know haven't got a clue about the West Lothian question, and the "northern" English ones are deeply pissed off about it. They may not be particularly happy about a Tory government, but they sure as hell don't want Scots voting on English things.
Please do not jump to conclusions. As a graduate of Glasgow University and life long St Mirren fan, I feel entitled to comment.
Rule from Westminster has long been contentious. Switzerland is a federal state, the UK is not. NZ has at least proportional representation.
Cheers
PS
Black is best
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 15.07.2015, 20:51
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
In my opinion, there is one thing wrong with your assumption...they would only grow exponentially if there is enough food (and territory) for them to do so. Polar bears don't have many predators, but somehow they aren't crammed nose to nose on every northern ice patch

To be honest, the natural food web more or less sorts this out without our influence, overpopulation results in starvation until the system finds equilibrium. If bins are locked and chickens cooped, there's not too much food going spare to allow fox overpopulating.
but running out of food is precisely the starvation point. and even before starvation, you will have worse welfare for the foxes and also a negative impact on biodiversity and the population of the fox prey.

not directly related, but interesting short video on introduction of wolves to control deer population:
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 15.07.2015, 21:01
Connor MacLeod's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: here
Posts: 765
Groaned at 89 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 2,447 Times in 800 Posts
Connor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond reputeConnor MacLeod has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
I grew up in a tiny village (~100 people) in deepest, darkest Shropshire.
Are you English?
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 15.07.2015, 21:34
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thank fox for the SNP

Quote:
View Post
Please do not jump to conclusions. As a graduate of Glasgow University and life long St Mirren fan, I feel entitled to comment.
Rule from Westminster has long been contentious. Switzerland is a federal state, the UK is not. NZ has at least proportional representation.
Cheers
PS
Black is best
Fair enough, my bad. I have to say though any impressions you got at Glasgow Uni aren't going to be representative of the Scots majority, they'll be more extreme (left - right doesn't really happen in Scotland) same as any Uni.

By most definitions the UK is almost a de facto federal state with significantly independent nations, the glaring exception is England.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thank you for the blobbies biff General off-topic 18 28.01.2014 09:41
Thank you for the incredible welcome! InfromCANADA Daily life 48 04.08.2012 00:59
Why is the VW Fox so cheap? Felipe Transportation/driving 13 17.09.2008 15:06
Thank the Lord for 4x4s DaveA Transportation/driving 35 25.01.2007 17:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0