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  #181  
Old 25.08.2015, 17:29
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I wonder how much of that 93% is black. Because a basic tenet of conservatism is that you are responsible for yourself.

Your question leads me to believe you haven't digested the concept. ;-) but thats alright.

Here, I wasn't aware of this until you asked and I googled. But I understand why:
POLL EARTHQUAKE: Trump leading among minorities, insiders in total shock.
which concept? conservatism? it means different things to different people. anyway that link doesn't really say much apart from its a catchy headline
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  #182  
Old 25.08.2015, 17:34
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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which concept? conservatism? it means different things to different people. anyway that link doesn't really say much apart from its a catchy headline
True, there are various kinds of conservatives. For example, there are social conservatives, and there are fiscal conservatives. Traditionalists call themselves Conservatives. Those who vote Tory might call themselves Conservatives. Hell, I think even DB calls himself Conservative.

The Donald doing what the Republicans have been trying to do:
Internal Poll Shows Donald Trump Generating Strong Support Among Minority Voters – “LANDSLIDE”

Last edited by Phos; 25.08.2015 at 17:47.
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  #183  
Old 25.08.2015, 18:25
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

I find it telling that the articles you link provide no numbers on Trumps popularity among non-whites. If they were really positive they'd show them.

The only article with hard facts resulting from a quick search, though a month old, is anything but positive on that score - 81% hispanics against him, 13% for him. Moreover, in May "only" 60% had been against him.
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  #184  
Old 25.08.2015, 18:38
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I'm curious about the bit in bold, take the US mid terms, it's a different picture or did I misunderstand you?:

http://mic.com/articles/103422/3-cha...term-elections
Being of a conservative mindset does not equate to voting Republican.

However, if the Reps got their act together, that is the pool of potential voters they could be winning over.
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  #185  
Old 25.08.2015, 18:52
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I find it telling that the articles you link provide no numbers on Trumps popularity among non-whites. If they were really positive they'd show them.

The only article with hard facts resulting from a quick search, though a month old, is anything but positive on that score - 81% hispanics against him, 13% for him. Moreover, in May "only" 60% had been against him.
I just found those articles, so don't know myself what they are comprised of. Nevertheless, I wouldn't expect a large majority of an ethnic minority group would support Trump. I suspect the vast majority of them are still spellbound by classist constructs, or believe someone will be getting them something for nothing. But for those who come to the fullness of a sense of personal responsibility for themselves, I would think you would find a higher percentage supporting a candidate or political philosophy that espouses the same. Point is that those perspectives are not mutually inclusive nor exclusive to any particular race or class.
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  #186  
Old 25.08.2015, 18:55
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

[QUOTE=ZuriRollt;2439229]
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Was just pointed out to me that you've groaned at 17 posts in the past couple've days - so don't worry - I still don't take it personally. It's fun, I usually don't get groaned at with such frequency in "real" life .

But it is distracting that you didn't bother to read my other posts in this thread in-between, and a bit sad that such a topic was reduced to a random groaning exercise...

These guys deserve their medals, and at a guess, I'd say the guy with the weapons was a terrorist
Some comments about groaners in this thread - towards the end
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  #187  
Old 25.08.2015, 19:12
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I just found those articles, so don't know myself what they are comprised of. Nevertheless, I wouldn't expect a large majority of an ethnic minority group would support Trump. I suspect the vast majority of them are still spellbound by classist constructs, or believe someone will be getting them something for nothing. But for those who come to the fullness of a sense of personal responsibility for themselves, I would think you would find a higher percentage supporting a candidate or political philosophy that espouses the same. Point is that those perspectives are not mutually inclusive nor exclusive to any particular race or class.
Maybe the economic ideas of the Republican party is class dependent.

But being socially conservative is not a class thing. Topics such as family, abortion etc are not really classist but depend on religious and cultural values.

Thus you can be an economic libertarian while having left wing views on family, and you can be more of a statist bordering on a socialist but still reject abortion.

For some reason, the Democrats right now seem to be covering three quadrants of the matrix leaving only one to the Republicans. But this is not set in stone and can easily change.

In the Swiss minaret vote, the SVP managed to mobilize large swatches of the feminist and also the homosexual vote by suggesting their freedoms might be on the chopping block if Islamisation were not controlled. This was one of the reaons the traditional left felt so humiliated over their defeat - they had failed to counter that argument even within their traditional support demographic. In Holland, Pim Fortuin was a prominent homosexual who championed traditionally conservative values sich as a small state and opposed immigration - and was a practicisng Roman Catholic attending a somewhat conservative tainted parish.

In the USA, the majority of the Republican party has not yet awoken to that perspective and are unnecessarily making enemies of people who could be their staunchest supporters. But my prediction is that it's just a matter of time until a person comes forwards who does precisely this.

I think Rand Paul has tried to some extent but he's too slippery as a charater for many people to take his word for it.
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  #188  
Old 25.08.2015, 19:37
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Maybe the economic ideas of the Republican party is class dependent.

But being socially conservative is not a class thing. Topics such as family, abortion etc are not really classist but depend on religious and cultural values.

Thus you can be an economic libertarian while having left wing views on family, and you can be more of a statist bordering on a socialist but still reject abortion.
I agree. Conforming one's views and beliefs based on a groups orthodoxy is kind of self-defeating. In the end, we're all individuals, which I believe the right side of the political spectrum is more acknowledging of. Yet I think it is also that kind of individualism that got Margaret Thatcher booted out by the Conservatives.

For example, I'm actually quite generous and compassionate. I practice charity. I just don't think it is something that should be compelled onto people through political coercion and legislation. Because at that point, it is no longer compassion and generosity. Its no longer charity.


Sorry, back to the real topic. This just in, and it is official:

French prosecutor: Suspected train attacker had 'terrorist intent'

I suppose anyone can and should take it up with French prosecutors from here on.

Last edited by Phos; 25.08.2015 at 20:31.
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  #189  
Old 25.08.2015, 20:25
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Sorry, back to the real topic. This just in, and it is official:

French prosecutor: Suspected train attacker had 'terrorist intent'...
…precisely corroborating the point of my first post in this thread: unquestionng acceptance (and further proliferation) of the "official" story often has less to do with the truth than with the agenda of the powers that be. And those who mindlessly participate in that process do neither themselves nor their neighbors any truly beneficial service.

Last edited by Texaner; 25.08.2015 at 20:43.
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  #190  
Old 25.08.2015, 20:33
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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which concept? conservatism? it means different things to different people. anyway that link doesn't really say much apart from its a catchy headline
You try too hard to make sense of his perorations.
He must be happy to have all this audience.
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  #191  
Old 25.08.2015, 20:42
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I agree. Conforming one's views and beliefs based on a groups orthodoxy is kind of self-defeating. In the end, we're all individuals, which I believe the right side of the political spectrum is more acknowledging of. Yet I think it is also that kind of individualism that got Margaret Thatcher booted out by the Conservatives.

For example, I'm actually quite generous and compassionate. I practice charity. I just don't think it is something that should be compelled onto people through political coercion and legislation. Because at that point, it is no longer compassion and generosity. Its no longer charity.


Sorry, back to the real topic. This just in, and it is official:

French prosecutor: Suspected train attacker had 'terrorist intent'

I suppose anyone can and should take it up with French prosecutors from here on.

We are back on square one Confirmation we need confirmation (That was a good movie)
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  #192  
Old 25.08.2015, 21:08
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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It's that because they don't want more Italians to come? I doubt. It's always them, the others.
Well, would like to agree, but I always just make silly comments
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  #193  
Old 25.08.2015, 21:11
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Well, would like to agree, but I always just make silly comments
If you say so.
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  #194  
Old 25.08.2015, 22:10
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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…precisely corroborating the point of my first post in this thread: unquestionng acceptance (and further proliferation) of the "official" story often has less to do with the truth than with the agenda of the powers that be. And those who mindlessly participate in that process do neither themselves nor their neighbors any truly beneficial service.
Wait, does this mean that it may have been a terrorist ???
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  #195  
Old 25.08.2015, 23:22
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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…precisely corroborating the point of my first post in this thread: unquestionng acceptance (and further proliferation) of the "official" story often has less to do with the truth than with the agenda of the powers that be. And those who mindlessly participate in that process do neither themselves nor their neighbors any truly beneficial service.
On the other hand, sometimes things may actually be as they appear... If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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  #196  
Old 25.08.2015, 23:47
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Ok. I didn't use orange or apple as a code for whatever else. It's simply a reference to the proverb of comparing apples with oranges.

My point is that he shouldn't be labeled terrorist at all, islamist or otherwise, before it's clear that he (in his eyes) does "fight" (to call it that) for some greater good (which at that point wasn't clear I think).


Well it is all a question of "definition"


The definition I use is the common terrorist definition "a person who terrorizes or frightens others."


I assume the definition you use is something like " a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims"


Luckily there are lots of definitions so we can all be happy

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That makes any and every ordinary criminal who fires his gun at a civilian, typically his victim, a terrorist.
Interesting definition

Note:
A terrorist is a criminal, but a criminal (even if he fires a gun) isn't automatically a terrorist. Actually, most of the latter aren't.

If you say so; there are lots of definitions but they all imply that to be a terrorist you have to terrorize a group of people rather than a single person.


As I wrote the definition I use is the common terrorist definition "a person who terrorizes or frightens others."
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  #197  
Old 26.08.2015, 01:05
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Are we still discussing this? Well at least compared with some other elucubrations I saw here we're still on topic.
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  #198  
Old 26.08.2015, 01:18
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

[QUOTE=greenmount;2439495]Are we still discussing this? Well at least compared with some other elucubrations I saw here we're still on topic.[/QUOTE]


You got that wrong ! "We are back on Topic"
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  #199  
Old 26.08.2015, 01:21
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Are we still discussing this? Well at least compared with some other elucubrations I saw here we're still on topic.[/QUOTE]


You got that wrong ! "We are back on Topic"
So....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0QS0HF20150824
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  #200  
Old 26.08.2015, 04:28
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I met a French Muslim family who were very much fans of Le Pen. They said their parents had come to France to work hard and had always respected her culture and never demanded any charity or support but the more recent immigrants were taking the pi$$ and giving Muslims a bad name and Le Pen was absolutely right to demand they be sent back.

To assume somebody is going to be a liberal leftie just because he's got dark skin is itself a racist assumption. But liberal lefties are not very good at seeing their own racism.

But to Claim that the **more recemt immigrants "" are all out
- not to respect French culture
- not to work hard
- to demand charity and Support
is a definite lie and total rubbish.
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