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  #201  
Old 26.08.2015, 09:54
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Wait, does this mean that it may have been a terrorist ???
He was an innocent nice guy just planning to kill some people on a train, which is a perfectly normal thing for innocent nice people to do. Why all this hyperbole and seeing of terrorists where there aren't any?
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  #202  
Old 26.08.2015, 09:56
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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But to Claim that the **more recemt immigrants "" are all out
- not to respect French culture
- not to work hard
- to demand charity and Support
is a definite lie and total rubbish.
I didn't say that.

I was trying to show that you can't automatically count on the solidarity of "old immigrants" to welcome "new immigrants".
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  #203  
Old 26.08.2015, 10:11
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I didn't say that.

I was trying to show that you can't automatically count on the solidarity of "old immigrants" to welcome "new immigrants".
Yes, people project their own frustrations onto others. Nothing new. And of course you can't count on anything and anyone to make it easier for you.
So, what was the topic of this thread again?

Ah, I see

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He was an innocent nice guy just planning to kill some people on a train, which is a perfectly normal thing for innocent nice people to do. Why all this hyperbole and seeing of terrorists where there aren't any?
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  #204  
Old 26.08.2015, 10:15
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34055713
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"Ayoub El-Khazzani had watched YouTube audio files whilst already on the Thalys train in which an individual called on the faithful to fight and take up arms in the name of the Prophet [Muhammad]," Mr Molins told a news conference.


He said a formal terrorism investigation had been opened, adding that other European authorities had passed on information about the suspect's travels and links to radical Islam.
Is it ok call him an Islamic Jihadist now? Or ..???
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  #205  
Old 26.08.2015, 10:36
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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…precisely corroborating the point of my first post in this thread: unquestionng acceptance (and further proliferation) of the "official" story often has less to do with the truth than with the agenda of the powers that be. And those who mindlessly participate in that process do neither themselves nor their neighbors any truly beneficial service.
Err, the French prosecutor deliberated that, and he is a French Official. Therefore simple logic says it is official, no?

Perhaps you don't believe it because it was reported on CNN? Perhaps you have to wait until RT reports it? Here's a video of the prosecutor's press conference:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/25/eu...-train-attack/

Okay, so there is a very, very, very slight chance that the Oligarchs doctored that press conference video with alien Computer Graphics technology. So take your grain of whatever kind of salt you need.



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He was an innocent nice guy just planning to kill some people on a train, which is a perfectly normal thing for innocent nice people to do. Why all this hyperbole and seeing of terrorists where there aren't any?
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Is it ok call him an Islamic Jihadist now? Or ..???

Well, he was a wannabe terrorist. Mochtegarn. So incompetent that real terrorist are too embarrassed to admit they have anything to do with him. A real terrorist is someone who strikes real fear and terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.

So no terror inflicted? Should he be let go then?
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  #206  
Old 26.08.2015, 10:44
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Before he assembled his weapon in the toilet compartment between two train cars on Friday, El Khazzani sat on the train listening on his phone to a YouTube file of "an individual calling his followers to combat and urging them to take up arms in the name of the Prophet," Molins said, saying this was indication of his terrorist intent.
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  #207  
Old 26.08.2015, 10:51
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Before he assembled his weapon in the toilet compartment between two train cars on Friday, El Khazzani sat on the train listening on his phone to a YouTube file of "an individual calling his followers to combat and urging them to take up arms in the name of the Prophet," Molins said, saying this was indication of his terrorist intent.
I don't really see why this is so important.

Justice should be about punishing people for what they do, not who their friends are or who they sympathize with or what they watch on Youtube. I don't buy this good criminals vs. bad criminals thing that is implying that to kill for greed is somehow better than to kill for your confused perception of God.
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  #208  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:16
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I don't really see why this is so important.

Justice should be about punishing people for what they do, not who their friends are or who they sympathize with or what they watch on Youtube. I don't buy this good criminals vs. bad criminals thing that is implying that to kill for greed is somehow better than to kill for your confused perception of God.
I agree in a way, however motive is usually considered, and there are "hate crime" laws, that means if for example you beat someone simply because they are black or Jewish, etc. then it's a harsher punishment than if you just beat someone randomly.
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  #209  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:22
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I don't really see why this is so important.

Justice should be about punishing people for what they do, not who their friends are or who they sympathize with or what they watch on Youtube. I don't buy this good criminals vs. bad criminals thing that is implying that to kill for greed is somehow better than to kill for your confused perception of God.
I agree to some extent, however intent and motivation do play a large role in legal precedings and risk of reoffending for example.

Plus the idea it to make the world a safer place and try to take steps to make sure this won't happen again requires analyzing the situation properly and diffuse root causes for future potential events---ideally of course.

Last edited by Chemmie; 26.08.2015 at 11:37.
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  #210  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:22
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Actually, more valuable than punishing this guy is to trace all his relationships for others like him. A regular petty crime charge may not allow prosecutors to investigate to the same depth as a terror related charge.
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  #211  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:27
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I agree in a way, however motive is usually considered, and there are "hate crime" laws, that means if for example you beat someone simply because they are black or Jewish, etc. then it's a harsher punishment than if you just beat someone randomly.
This is something I'm not comfortable with.

Suppose you have a glass too many at the pub and get into a brawl seriously injuring somebody who happens to be Jewish. Then the police check your browser cache and discover you inadvertently clicked on a link to a hate website and suddenly because of that you're getting a tougher punishment.

To me what anybody thinks or says should be separate from what they do or attempt to do. Otherwise you are punishing them for their thoughts or beliefs rather than their actions. We have freedom of conscience (technically at least) but we don't have the freedom to do as we like. These things should remain separate before the law.

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Plus the idea it to make the world a safer place and try to take steps to make sure this won't happen again requires analyzing the situation properly and diffuse root causes for future potential events---ideally of course.
The root cause is hormones running crazy in angry young men.

Some beat the crap out of guys who support a different football team, others shoot people who don't share their religious views. Anger will find its path and the justification is not the same as the cause.
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  #212  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:35
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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This is something I'm not comfortable with.

Suppose you have a glass too many at the pub and get into a brawl seriously injuring somebody who happens to be Jewish. Then the police check your browser cache and discover you inadvertently clicked on a link to a hate website and suddenly because of that you're getting a tougher punishment.

To me what anybody thinks or says should be separate from what they do or attempt to do. Otherwise you are punishing them for their thoughts or beliefs rather than their actions. We have freedom of conscience (technically at least) but we don't have the freedom to do as we like. These things should remain separate before the law.

The root cause is hormones running crazy in angry young men.

Some beat the crap out of guys who support a different football team, others shoot people who don't share their religious views. Anger will find its path and the justification is not the same as the cause.

Clearly, there is now a layer of law enforcement that concerns itself simply with information gathering, and not for prosecution. Here, they immediately acknowledged this guy was known and on their radar. This database they keep is invaluable in times of emergency crisis management, and for forensics. Preparation for incidents like this serves its practical purpose. As for penal law, I agree that Law enforcement should not try to enforce thought control.

Given that this guy apparently jabbers, there is a good chance he would be willing to spill all the beans of everything he knows. They may even quid pro quo for a lighter sentence in return, no? I've seen that in Hollywood movies.
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  #213  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:43
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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.....

The root cause is hormones running crazy in angry young men.

Some beat the crap out of guys who support a different football team, others shoot people who don't share their religious views. Anger will find its path and the justification is not the same as the cause.

This is why a proper analysis IS required.

Hypothetically speaking: if we would agree that the root cause is hormones-runaway in angry young men, and some how scientists have found a way to identify the angry and treat their hormones--then in theory the problem would be solved.

However (still hypothetical), if the issues was indeed brainwashing from watching said video mentioned early, hypothetical solutions would still leave all women to watch it, become brainwashed and cause similar crimes.

This is why proper analysis could be more useful that just blaming it on bad-boys being bad-boys.
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  #214  
Old 26.08.2015, 11:46
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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The root cause is hormones running crazy in angry young men.

Some beat the crap out of guys who support a different football team, others shoot people who don't share their religious views. Anger will find its path and the justification is not the same as the cause.
There was an interesting debate on BBC Radio 4 the other day about evil and morality.

All young men have hormones running crazy.
Very few young men commit evil.

Lots of people get depressed.
Not many fly an aeroplane full of people into the ground.

Some people are just plainly evil.
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Old 26.08.2015, 12:08
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Clearly, there is now a layer of law enforcement that concerns itself simply with information gathering, and not for prosecution. Here, they immediately acknowledged this guy was known and on their radar. This database they keep is invaluable in times of emergency crisis management, and for forensics. Preparation for incidents like this serves its practical purpose. As for penal law, I agree that Law enforcement should not try to enforce thought control.
There is a difference between information gathering and sentencing.

The police can actually gather a lot of information that they may use exclusively for intelligence purposes as the courts will not accept it as evidence. But just because the police are observing or have even infiltrated an organisation, it is not criminal to be a member of that organisation and individuals should not be discriminated on grounds of association.

Some years ago in Germany an attempt to get the NPD banned was dropped because it turned out that the police coordination had been so incompetent that different police informers or agents had inadvertently collected intelligence on one another and any resulting ban would thus have been based on things that had actually been initiated or done by the police rather than real members.
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Old 26.08.2015, 12:33
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34055713

Is it ok call him an Islamic Jihadist now? Or ..???
No, he was just a bad boy apparently, with a Kalashnikov and 200 bullets.
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  #217  
Old 26.08.2015, 12:33
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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To me what anybody thinks or says should be separate from what they do or attempt to do. Otherwise you are punishing them for their thoughts or beliefs rather than their actions. We have freedom of conscience (technically at least) but we don't have the freedom to do as we like. These things should remain separate before the law.
A) There are hate-focused groups whose ideology preaches hatred (eg. Neo-Nazi groups, radical Islamists, KKK, etc.)

B) Some of the members of these groups carry out violent acts in the name of their group, or related to their groups ideology (eg. beheadings, lynchings, etc.)

Is A and B not somehow connected?
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Old 26.08.2015, 13:06
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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A) There are hate-focused groups whose ideology preaches hatred (eg. Neo-Nazi groups, radical Islamists, KKK, etc.)

B) Some of the members of these groups carry out violent acts in the name of their group, or related to their groups ideology (eg. beheadings, lynchings, etc.)

Is A and B not somehow connected?
Using normal logic - yes. Using EF logic - no.
If all the info presented in the media (re. this guy identity) is true there's not much left to support the assumption that he wasn't a (wannabe) terrorist. You know who he is, what he has done before that, his sympathies...and still can't say that word. (talking about brainwashing heh)
All this discussion is becoming even more ridiculous than a few pages ago.
Have fun.


“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....” N.C.
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  #219  
Old 26.08.2015, 13:45
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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A) There are hate-focused groups whose ideology preaches hatred (eg. Neo-Nazi groups, radical Islamists, KKK, etc.)

B) Some of the members of these groups carry out violent acts in the name of their group, or related to their groups ideology (eg. beheadings, lynchings, etc.)

Is A and B not somehow connected?
A) Many democracies have a concept called freedom of conscience and tolerance which includes the freedom to believe whatever crap you want. If you limit the number of things you can believe or think, the you are losing your moral high ground over groups who would do essentially the same to you should they come to power.

B) if you pull the trigger, it's your fault and you get punished. If you argue "OK, my friends are all bad guys and encouraged me to do this, but actually I wasn't listening to them and I did this because I wanted to rob some people". Shouldn't the correct response be "sorry mate, you're not going to prison because of whether or not you listened to your friends but you're going to prison because of what you did"

In other words, this whole terrorism thing is a blind alley into which we have collectively allowed ourselves to be lead.
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Old 26.08.2015, 13:49
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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In other words, this whole terrorism thing is a blind alley into which we have collectively allowed ourselves to be lead.
And look at who's at the front of the line!


“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."


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