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  #221  
Old 26.08.2015, 14:37
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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with everything that god or nature has given you. I dont care if you grab and use the baby of that sociopath dolce $ cabbana rich bitch sitting in first class; but do something dont just sit there and wait to dies when you and your fellow passengers have the advantage.

If they want to blow up they would have done it or would do it, and any kind of weapon can only harm the first couple of people if he is lucky!

The events from last week shows that quick action can stop any crazy individual no matter how many weapons he has!!!!
Sorry but this is rubbish. The power comes out of the rifle barrels. The men praised were athletes and well trained
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  #222  
Old 26.08.2015, 15:00
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Same "phenomenon" in the 'States. Well, phenomenal to Lefties anyway. They seem to think because they whine for minorities that they own minorities, and will therefore support all their lefty shenanigans. Except a vast majority of minorities are actually culturally conservative. They end up supporting conservative causes.

We see this with Italian migrants in Switzerland as well. They will vote SVP. Its only because they choose to think objectively and clearly, instead of buying into Lefty delusions.

Stupid is as stupid does.
most of the Italian immigrants to CH at home were with the Democrazia Cristiana and so here will side with CVP and FDP and SVP

Islamic State folks of course are SVP/CVP
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  #223  
Old 26.08.2015, 15:01
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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A) Many democracies have a concept called freedom of conscience and tolerance which includes the freedom to believe whatever crap you want. If you limit the number of things you can believe or think, the you are losing your moral high ground over groups who would do essentially the same to you should they come to power.

B) if you pull the trigger, it's your fault and you get punished. If you argue "OK, my friends are all bad guys and encouraged me to do this, but actually I wasn't listening to them and I did this because I wanted to rob some people". Shouldn't the correct response be "sorry mate, you're not going to prison because of whether or not you listened to your friends but you're going to prison because of what you did"

In other words, this whole terrorism thing is a blind alley into which we have collectively allowed ourselves to be lead.
Sounds like you're a lawyer...

Anyway, we'll see how they will handle this case.
Next time I'll hear that Breivik wasn't actually a terrorist....noooo, he was just an angry young man with hormonal problems who's going to be released soon. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised.
Such a mockery of the judicial system, everywhere...

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Well it is all a question of "definition"


The definition I use is the common terrorist definition "a person who terrorizes or frightens others."


I assume the definition you use is something like " a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims"


Luckily there are lots of definitions so we can all be happy




If you say so; there are lots of definitions but they all imply that to be a terrorist you have to terrorize a group of people rather than a single person.


As I wrote the definition I use is the common terrorist definition "a person who terrorizes or frightens others."
He he, yes it is a question of definition, you were right. At least here on EF, of course, I hope the laws are much more clear on these things.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.08.2015 at 15:16.
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  #224  
Old 26.08.2015, 15:03
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

I like her ,right idea


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  #225  
Old 26.08.2015, 15:17
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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And look at who's at the front of the line!
“For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone."
I noticed Cameron says a LOT of things he has no way of implementing. Its good for poll numbers for his party. Its all for pontification devoid of implementation. Perhaps he should have run for Pope instead of Chief Executive of the UK.



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A) Many democracies have a concept called freedom of conscience and tolerance which includes the freedom to believe whatever crap you want. If you limit the number of things you can believe or think, the you are losing your moral high ground over groups who would do essentially the same to you should they come to power.

B) if you pull the trigger, it's your fault and you get punished. If you argue "OK, my friends are all bad guys and encouraged me to do this, but actually I wasn't listening to them and I did this because I wanted to rob some people". Shouldn't the correct response be "sorry mate, you're not going to prison because of whether or not you listened to your friends but you're going to prison because of what you did"

In other words, this whole terrorism thing is a blind alley into which we have collectively allowed ourselves to be lead.

There have been similar legal situations with organised crime. Regular judicial systems couldn't reach its leadership, and foot soldier took the fall from the team. But the laws were adjusted to criminalize patterns of criminal behaviour. With it, prosecutions could take place without attributing it to any particular criminal act. Similar effort here to close a loophole?

Last edited by Phos; 26.08.2015 at 16:11.
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  #226  
Old 26.08.2015, 16:23
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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A) Many democracies have a concept called freedom of conscience and tolerance which includes the freedom to believe whatever crap you want. If you limit the number of things you can believe or think, the you are losing your moral high ground over groups who would do essentially the same to you should they come to power.
True, you are free to "think" and "believe" whatever you want, but if you start to incite hatred and violence, it's a different story. If someone says "I don't like Jews", ok fine, that's your right. If you say "all Jews must die", you're starting to slip down a slope, because your "beliefs" are now wishing to inflict harm on others. If you gather up a bunch of people (maybe some with hormonal problems) and start telling them how evil Jews are, give them the addresses of some Jews in the area, give them a AK and teach them how to shoot it, then you've crossed a line, no?

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B) if you pull the trigger, it's your fault and you get punished. If you argue "OK, my friends are all bad guys and encouraged me to do this, but actually I wasn't listening to them and I did this because I wanted to rob some people". Shouldn't the correct response be "sorry mate, you're not going to prison because of whether or not you listened to your friends but you're going to prison because of what you did"
Ultimately the person who pulled the trigger is responsible. But if someone else accommodated or "groomed" them by giving them money, or a gun, or trained them to shoot, etc, then this person is an accomplice and should be charged accordingly, no?

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A
In other words, this whole terrorism thing is a blind alley into which we have collectively allowed ourselves to be lead.
So all the radical Imams who preach "death to the West" and send people to learn how to make bombs... are what exactly?
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  #227  
Old 26.08.2015, 17:12
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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True, you are free to "think" and "believe" whatever you want, but if you start to incite hatred and violence, it's a different story. If someone says "I don't like Jews", ok fine, that's your right. If you say "all Jews must die", you're starting to slip down a slope, because your "beliefs" are now wishing to inflict harm on others. If you gather up a bunch of people (maybe some with hormonal problems) and start telling them how evil Jews are, give them the addresses of some Jews in the area, give them a AK and teach them how to shoot it, then you've crossed a line, no?
I see your point. But where would the chain of responsibility stop? If you listened to some heavy metal music with violent lyrics and went out and shot somebody, would that be the singer's fault? What about if you played some violent video games. Should the developer do time in jail? Playing chess is also glorifying violence. Isn't the cut off point very subjective?

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Ultimately the person who pulled the trigger is responsible. But if someone else accommodated or "groomed" them by giving them money, or a gun, or trained them to shoot, etc, then this person is an accomplice and should be charged accordingly, no?
For me the question is, why did that person groom him with the explicit intent of him performing a crime? Otherwise is every gun instructor who also voices a political opinion co-responsible for what his pupils may do?


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So all the radical Imams who preach "death to the West" and send people to learn how to make bombs... are what exactly?
They're idiots. Nothing more. Tragic idiots actually, because if you have that level of influence over young people there are so many more positive things you could inspire them to do.
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  #228  
Old 26.08.2015, 17:20
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I see your point. But where would the chain of responsibility stop? If you listened to some heavy metal music with violent lyrics and went out and shot somebody, would that be the singer's fault? What about if you played some violent video games. Should the developer do time in jail? Playing chess is also glorifying violence. Isn't the cut off point very subjective?



For me the question is, why did that person groom him with the explicit intent of him performing a crime? Otherwise is every gun instructor who also voices a political opinion co-responsible for what his pupils may do?


.
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True, you are free to "think" and "believe" whatever you want, but if you start to incite hatred and violence, it's a different story. If someone says "I don't like Jews", ok fine, that's your right. If you say "all Jews must die", you're starting to slip down a slope, because your "beliefs" are now wishing to inflict harm on others. If you gather up a bunch of people (maybe some with hormonal problems) and start telling them how evil Jews are, give them the addresses of some Jews in the area, give them a AK and teach them how to shoot it, then you've crossed a line, no?
:


What you're looking for is called incitement and it is a serious criminal offence.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/incitement
Esto, fortunately there are some laws so it's not everything so subjective as others might want to suggest...
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  #229  
Old 26.08.2015, 17:29
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Courts decide the application of legal principles as brought to them by prosecutors. In some of these cases, it could be considered criminal conspiracy and treason. Also, these are from civilian criminal law perspectives. From a national defence perspective, some of these may provoke extra judiciary responses, which we have already seen. Apparently, governments also have that prerogative, whine as we may.
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  #230  
Old 26.08.2015, 19:01
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Err, the French prosecutor deliberated that, and he is a French Official. Therefore simple logic says it is official, no?...
Exactly. But by exactly what logic does 'official' automatically equal true, credible, plausible or even capable of being determined? Governments at all levels have been caught using their 'official' status to benefit their supporters' businesses or other financial interests, rather than simply telling the truth.

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...Perhaps you don't believe it because it was reported on CNN? Perhaps you have to wait until RT reports it?...
It's not a question of believing what the guy said (whether on CNN, RT, or wherever). It's a question of believing it's the truth. An 'official' statement today has no more automatic claim to be presumed true or reliable than any other statement from any other source. Those who profit from the custom of an unaccountable, unelected 'officialdom' are making sure to leverage it as much as possible for as long as possible. But it's days may well be numbered.
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  #231  
Old 26.08.2015, 19:59
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Exactly. But by exactly what logic does 'official' automatically equal true, credible, plausible or even capable of being determined? Governments at all levels have been caught using their 'official' status to benefit their supporters' businesses or other financial interests, rather than simply telling the truth.

It's not a question of believing what the guy said (whether on CNN, RT, or wherever). It's a question of believing it's the truth. An 'official' statement today has no more automatic claim to be presumed true or reliable than any other statement from any other source. Those who profit from the custom of an unaccountable, unelected 'officialdom' are making sure to leverage it as much as possible for as long as possible. But it's days may well be numbered.
In which case, your challenge is to 'officialdom' altogether., the structure of the status quo as it stands, not really this particular case, is it? As for me, I go to a dentist to have dental work done. I go to a mechanic, to have automotive work done. I go to a craftsman, to have skilled work done. I don't go to a novice, and I hope you don't either. But generally, I understand where you are coming from. I am aware of it. I've heard it before. 'Death to the fascist insect that preys upon the blood of the people', no?

As you go on your quest to smash the status quo, obliterating any truths that may stand in your way, and the structure of civilised society as it stands now, you ought to give a thought to whether or not it will be a better world should you succeed. Even ISIS is convinced it will be, no? It will still be run by corrupt people, wouldn't it be?
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  #232  
Old 26.08.2015, 21:38
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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If you listened to some heavy metal music with violent lyrics and went out and shot somebody, would that be the singer's fault?
I'm fine with metal. Justin Bieber or Luca Hänni might drive me to go shoot someone, however
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  #233  
Old 27.08.2015, 08:38
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Well, he was a wannabe terrorist. Mochtegarn. So incompetent that real terrorist are too embarrassed to admit they have anything to do with him. A real terrorist is someone who strikes real fear and terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.

So no terror inflicted? Should he be let go then?
Security forces placed on high alert in major European railways stations...I would say this resembles with "inflicting terror"...a bit.

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Security was stepped up on major European rail services as fears of “blowback” attacks by jihadis returning from Syria escalated after a gunman known to the intelligence agencies opened fire on a high-speed train bound for Paris.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...h-train-attack


In other news, the hungry angry hormonal young man has bought a first class ticket, apparently. (probably to be closer to the locomotive? just a speculation)

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But Paris prosecutor Francois Molins has said El-Khazzani watched a jihadi video on his cellphone moments before the attack and that - although he claimed to be homeless - he bought a first-class ticket. Molins said the suspect's explanations became increasingly incoherent until he stopped speaking altogether to investigators.
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/g...orism-1.364668

Last edited by greenmount; 27.08.2015 at 08:51.
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  #234  
Old 27.08.2015, 09:47
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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In other news, the hungry angry hormonal young man has bought a first class ticket, apparently. (probably to be closer to the locomotive? just a speculation)
Don't you get a meal or snack served (included) in first class on the TGV?
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  #235  
Old 27.08.2015, 09:58
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Don't you get a meal or snack served (included) in first class on the TGV?
Only before you open fire
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  #236  
Old 27.08.2015, 14:15
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I don't really see why this is so important.

Justice should be about punishing people for what they do, not who their friends are or who they sympathize with or what they watch on Youtube. I don't buy this good criminals vs. bad criminals thing that is implying that to kill for greed is somehow better than to kill for your confused perception of God.
That would mean there's no difference between planned cold blooded murder and the poor chap who's unlucky enough to run over and kill a child running onto the street from in between two parked cars.

Not what I'd subscribe to.
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  #237  
Old 27.08.2015, 15:07
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I like her ,right idea


Nice nails.
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  #238  
Old 27.08.2015, 18:14
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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In which case, your challenge is to 'officialdom' altogether., the structure of the status quo as it stands, not really this particular case, is it? As for me, I go to a dentist to have dental work done. I go to a mechanic, to have automotive work done. I go to a craftsman, to have skilled work done. I don't go to a novice, and I hope you don't either. But generally, I understand where you are coming from. I am aware of it. I've heard it before. 'Death to the fascist insect that preys upon the blood of the people', no?

As you go on your quest to smash the status quo, obliterating any truths that may stand in your way, and the structure of civilised society as it stands now, you ought to give a thought to whether or not it will be a better world should you succeed. Even ISIS is convinced it will be, no? It will still be run by corrupt people, wouldn't it be?
You tend to put an awful lot of words in other folks' mouths.

Yes, I question the truthfulness of most government officials, whether elected or appointed (they routinely prove themselves untrustworthy at worst, and questionably honest at best) — especially when they've been handed an opportunity by current events to expand state power at the expense of the liberty and/or property of the common citizen.

The twisting of my distrust into a "quest" for "obliterating the structure of civilised society" is the hyperbolic product of your own statist imagination alone, not my words as written.
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  #239  
Old 27.08.2015, 18:30
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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That would mean there's no difference between planned cold blooded murder and the poor chap who's unlucky enough to run over and kill a child running onto the street from in between two parked cars.

Not what I'd subscribe to.
I think one can distinguish between immediate intent and getting a tougher punishment because you attend the wrong mosque or hang out with the wrong friends or vote for the wrong party or read the wrong books.

Killing by accident is obviosuly different to killing by intention. But I don't think there should be a difference between murdering in cold blood and having nice friends and murdering in cold blood and having nasty friends,
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Old 27.08.2015, 23:04
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Terror is a political tool: threaten civilians with violence to achieve political goals.

It's a very powerful tool - individuals and governments have changed their behavior because of Terror and this is why Terrorists should be punished more severely than criminals.
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