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  #101  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:18
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Is that a trick question? To have a police record does not mean you are under 24/7 surveillance... and getting a gun is easy. It might be an odd idea to Swiss... but not all guns are legal. Buying a former eastern block pistol illegally is in most parts of Europe faster and cheaper than getting a legal one. An AK would be illegal anyway, since assault rifles are pretty much only legal for private people in Switzerland and the US.

According to a report on French BFM TV, most illegal weapons come from the Balkans (mostly from former Yugoslavia) and the Baltic States (Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia) and increasingly also from Ukraine and Georgia. These are some of the most crime-ridden places in Europe (their murder rate being up to 10 times higher than in the "gun-ridden" Switzerland). Illegal weapons are also entering Europe from Libya and the Daesh/rebels (terrorists) controlled parts of Syria via Turkey. Not long ago, two French reporters from M6 channel (Enquête exclusive: l'incroyable filière des Kalachnikovs) managed to smuggle a fake Kalashnikov ("arme factice" as they called it) from Bosnia to France. During their long journey by coach no one ever controlled their bags at any of the border crossings, not even upon entering the Schengen area. Thus, outlawing guns in Benelux, France or Switzerland won't solve the problem. Many Eastern European countries such as Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, Belarus and Russia are successfully stepping up efforts against all kinds of criminal gangs and smugglers; while others with very lax laws (Kossovo, Lithuania) or no laws at all (Ukraine, Libya) haven't done much to tackle the problem.
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  #102  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:24
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Its not the media or us who is speculating on his links to terrorism, its the Spanish, Belgian, French and German anti-terror police. A.K.A. Olie Gar Keyes. LOL.

More signs that train attacker had terrorist links

But whatever he is, that is what ensuing investigation is to determine. In the meantime, they will or should look at his relationships, which he may be trying to avoid.
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  #103  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:30
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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They'd rather die than get caught excusing themselves for their acts, whether successfully executed or not.
most western "terrorists" do not die in a blaze of glory, but rather rot in various western prisons after fully availing themselves of whatever due process may be available.
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  #104  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:33
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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...crap terrorists, which - let's face it - most "islamists" are.
Can you cite a single "islamist" terrorist ("crap" or otherwise) who ever substituted a "mere crime" alibi for his terroristic agenda/ideology when captured?

I didn't think so.

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most western "terrorists" do not die in a blaze of glory, but rather rot in various western prisons after fully availing themselves of whatever due process may be available.
The real terrorists don't give up their ideology. It's shameful for them to do so. Many of the alleged "terrorists" at Guantanamo claimed from the very beginning that they weren't terrorists — nor did any terrorist accusations against them stick. But western oligarchs are too proud to admit to imprisoning innocents, so they rotted away. Any real terrorists held there didn't deny their ideology/agenda.
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  #105  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:36
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Can you cite a single "islamist" terrorist ("crap" or otherwise) who ever substituted a "mere crime" alibi for his terroristic agenda/ideology when captured?

I didn't think so.
Can you cite/name a single "hungry and homeless" guy who managed to fly from Spain to Germany to Turkey, and traveled to Belgium and France all in the span of 1 year?
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  #106  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:55
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

I assume by claiming to be a petty criminal, he is afforded some due process a terrorism charge would not afford him.

I wouldn't mind seeing this guy and his lawyer try make a mockery of the legal system, and game the petty crime alibi. It would highlight the idiocy and vulnerability of the judiciary system.
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  #107  
Old 24.08.2015, 18:59
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Can you cite a single "islamist" terrorist ("crap" or otherwise) who ever substituted a "mere crime" alibi for his terroristic agenda/ideology when captured?
Bin Laden denied being involved with 9/11 immediately after it happened:

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I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks
...then later admitted it:

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...a smiling bin Laden goes on to say that the World Trade Centre's twin towers were a "legitimate target" and the pilots who hijacked the planes were "blessed by Allah".
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  #108  
Old 24.08.2015, 19:09
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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If it is, it'll be the first time, like I said. A precedent. (Or can you find another case of a real member of a terrorist group in recent history who wimped out with an it-was-just-a-crime story?) They'd rather die than get caught excusing themselves for their acts, whether successfully executed or not.
Your usual poorly researched comments;

The Boston bomber apologised to his victims here.

Convicted Islamic terrorist Misbahuddin Ahmed apologized for his crimes here

The Real IRA apologized for the Omagh Bombing here

Oregon Terrorist Mohamed Mohamud Writes Apology Letter for Bomb Plot here

Muhammoud Mugisha, a self-confessed Al-Shabaab terrorist has apologized to Ugandans here.
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  #109  
Old 24.08.2015, 19:10
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Two things are obvious to me from this thread so far:

1) There will always be those who glibly accept western governments' knee-jerk labeling an ever-broadening spectrum of acts as "terrorist" events — not quite noticing the cost in privacy and liberty those governments aim to extract from their subjects as they do so. (It wasn't that long ago that there was a clear distinction between acts of crime — even mass murder — and acts of terrorism, as terrorism was always organized in some fashion and aimed at distinct political/idealogical objectives, whereas crime — even mass murder — was not. That's no longer the case, according to the labeling practices of contemporary western politicians.)

2) Those who are so quick to swallow the "official" story of the western oligarchs (which itself was delivered without waiting for any investigations to conclude) don't seem to notice that this would be the first time a "terrorist" ever claimed to have "only" "criminal" intent. Real terrorists are proud of their causes. They don't make excuses or offer pleas. If this guy was actually on a terrorist mission, he's now a laughingstock among his peers, who'll surely shun (if not kill) him for his embarrassing performance.
After the last smattering of posts, it should be all the more clear who qualifies for item #1 cited in my first post (above), likewise hastening to deny or ignore item #2.

Meanwhile, time will tell, but it wouldn't surprise me if this event (together with all its "official" spin) were to quietly fade away without any real closure, not unlike the case of flight MH 17 or those of so many Guantanamo prisoners. (Western oligarchs are wont to invoke long-term silence and inaction when the truth would prove embarrassing.)

Last edited by Texaner; 24.08.2015 at 20:12.
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  #110  
Old 24.08.2015, 19:27
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

@ marton

I hope you are aware that making an excuse and apologizing are two different things? An excuse is often used in the criminal law system as a defense, whereas apologies usually come after the hearing, when the accused has a chance to address everyone before the judge goes on to pronounce a judgement.
Not going to get into your other problematic statements but concerning Dzokar Tsarnaev, he wasn't part of a terrorist group, but rather (self)radicalized. He and his bro were acting on their own and not acting in connection with a group. Not to mention that his half hearted apologies are clearly legally, rather than morally motivated and therefore mean nothing.

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  #111  
Old 24.08.2015, 20:27
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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How many times have you, or anyone you know, found a bag full of guns while strolling through the local park? Let alone then deciding to rob a train with them.

@bigblue:

We did not have that statement at the time the thread was opened. Even if we did this kind of knee jerk assumptions aren't helpful in any way, are they?


You know maybe you're right - the 3 Americans and 1 Brit should have stopped and thought to ask "excuse me for asking, but are you just hungry or about to perform a mass murder" before tackling him.

Indeed, this should have certainly been the correct response from the Brit - he should be ashamed

@ZuriRollt
Nope, I was refering to the discussion we've had after the occurence. Having a fair trial and getting the facts of a case right are one thing, eliminating a potential danger a totally different one...

Not sure why it seems difficult for some to distinguish between definitions and responses concerning terrorism and other crimes.

The terms terrorist and criminal are not mutually exclusive, why do you claim they are?
For example, look at all those terrorists who have robbed banks for funding or sold drugs or gun running or money laundering.


You also keep mixing the definition of a terrorist with the definition of terrorism.


A terrorist is defined as "a person who terrorizes or frightens others."


Terrorism is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes."


Clearly this guy was a terrorist or do you think the people in the train were not terrorized or frightened?
Please do not spin this around to say I was claiming the guy was a Jihadist, I simply wrote a [plain and ordinary] terrorist. Interestingly you were the first person to use the term Jihadist in this thread, why?


It may well be that they can prove he had political purposes in which case he will be described as an Islamic terrorist, or a right wing terrorist, or whatever instead of simply a plain and ordinary terrorist.
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  #112  
Old 24.08.2015, 21:29
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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...He and his bro were acting on their own and not acting in connection with a group..
but you would agree that he and his brother were Islamic terrorists, right? I mean, I think the syllogism is pretty simple:

A is a Muslim. A is a terrorist. Therefore, A is a Muslim terrorist.



but if it helps you sleep better at night differentiating between terrorists who are not sponsored by non-state actors (or state actors) versus those who are, I guess knock yourself out. me, I don't get the distinction.
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  #113  
Old 24.08.2015, 21:38
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

The guy really looks like a bit like an idiot and an Haryey Oswald-style scape-goat.
But that may just be a clever defense-strategy.
He doesn't deny entering the train with an AK47 and how many rounds of ammo? 300? If you have half a brain and haven't been living under a rock for the last 15 years, that the mere possession of the weapon alone can get you a terrorist-conviction.
And it goes on: Where did he get it?
He found it!
That is just ridiculous.

If the gun hadn't misfired and he hadn't been an obvious novice at handling it (which is probably the point that pulls this thing into conspiracy-theory land), we'd be talking about an absolutely horrible massacre. He could have roamed the cars, emptying clip after clip and killing dozens in the process.
Charlie Hebdo would have looked like a picnic in contrast.

So, why isn't this an open-and-shut case?

To me, he looks a bit like one of those guys the FBI seem to pick up almost on a bi-weekly basis by having an undercover-agent post messages in radical islamic forums and recruiting willing subjects to kill "infidels".
The "low-hanging-fruit" of counter-terrorism, if you want to call it like that.
Maybe this guy was part of such a sting but ended up with a real weapon and an idea of how to make use of it?
Had he succeeded, he would most likely have been killed right on the spot on the first occasion by one of the SWAT teams.
And we all know: the winner writes the history books.

That said, he could just be a stupid guy that came into the possession of an AK47 and wanted to land a Ronnie-Biggs-style coup.
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  #114  
Old 24.08.2015, 21:39
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Can you cite/name a single "hungry and homeless" guy who managed to fly from Spain to Germany to Turkey, and traveled to Belgium and France all in the span of 1 year?
Jack Reacher
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  #115  
Old 24.08.2015, 21:50
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

Hi crazygringo

The fact that you did not recognize my post was a direct response to marton, pointing out the fallacies of his writing, coupled with you attempting to twist my words is worrisome and to be honest makes it impossible to have a constructive discussion.

marton and others.. It's interesting how you refuse to respond to posts that challenge your concepts, instead preferring to switch to other sub-topics. Low confidence or lack of self-insight?


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but you would agree that he and his brother were Islamic terrorists, right? I mean, I think the syllogism is pretty simple:

A is a Muslim. A is a terrorist. Therefore, A is a Muslim terrorist.



but if it helps you sleep better at night differentiating between terrorists who are not sponsored by non-state actors (or state actors) versus those who are, I guess knock yourself out. me, I don't get the distinction.
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  #116  
Old 24.08.2015, 21:56
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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To me, he looks a bit like one of those guys the FBI seem to pick up almost on a bi-weekly basis by having an undercover-agent post messages in radical islamic forums and recruiting willing subjects to kill "infidels".
The "low-hanging-fruit" of counter-terrorism, if you want to call it like that.
Maybe this guy was part of such a sting but ended up with a real weapon and an idea of how to make use of it?
Had he succeeded, he would most likely have been killed right on the spot on the first occasion by one of the SWAT teams.
FBI? SWAT teams? In France?
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  #117  
Old 24.08.2015, 22:02
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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FBI? SWAT teams? In France?
I don't know the names of the organizations responsible for that business in France.
The "SWAT"-teams have a different name (which I cannot remember and which I cannot be bothered to look up - but I think I'll recognize them, when I see them).
FBI is probably DGSI in France.
But a Frenchman can probably better answer that...
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  #118  
Old 24.08.2015, 22:09
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Hi crazygringo

The fact that you did not recognize my post was a direct response to marton, pointing out the fallacies of his writing, coupled with you attempting to twist my words is worrisome and to be honest makes it impossible to have a constructive discussion.

marton and others.. It's interesting how you refuse to respond to posts that challenge your concepts, instead preferring to switch to other sub-topics. Low confidence or lack of self-insight?
does this mean that you do not consider the brothers involved in the Boston bombing, or the individual involved in the train incident, to be Islamic terrorists?



you've now posted close to a dozen times suggesting that the word "terrorist" presupposes a provable link to "organized crime", and I am simply trying to understand why. particularly given that "lone wolf" terrorism is in fact the very thing European authorities are most concerned with at present.

P.S. I'll politely ignore the ad hominem part of your post.
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  #119  
Old 24.08.2015, 22:11
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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I don't know the names of the organizations responsible for that business in France.
The "SWAT"-teams have a different name (which I cannot remember and which I cannot be bothered to look up - but I think I'll recognize them, when I see them).
FBI is probably DGSI in France.
But a Frenchman can probably better answer that...
CRS.

Tom
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  #120  
Old 24.08.2015, 22:17
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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does this mean that you do not consider the brothers involved in the Boston bombing, or the individual involved in the train incident, to be Islamic terrorists?

Arguing about words and labels? I don't think terrorists call what they do terrorism. Nuff said?
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