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  #141  
Old 25.08.2015, 09:50
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Ok. I didn't use orange or apple as a code for whatever else. It's simply a reference to the proverb of comparing apples with oranges.

My point is that he shouldn't be labeled terrorist at all, islamist or otherwise, before it's clear that he (in his eyes) does "fight" (to call it that) for some greater good (which at that point wasn't clear I think).

Exactly. Stereotyping is very pervasive as this thread shows, but it's pointless to make assumptions before we have any information.



@Marton,
LOL, if you want to point at someone who refuses to respond to posts that challenge their concepts then try looking in a mirror

can you give concrete examples?


About "it impossible to have a constructive discussion." true when you keep trying to spin other peoples posts into claims of Islamic terrorism or Jihadists when you are the only one using these labels.

No spinning here. I think I’ve been pretty clear. But thanks for mentioning that. I realize I should have said muslim, like others before me, because as your comments show, Jihad is a term that’s loaded with mistranslated concepts and has many meanings. Ironically, I've used the term to point out how silly it is to make assumptions based on one's own perceptions and you rightly recognized it to be wrong.

As you pointed it out, you interpreted it as a radical religion, or perhaps holy war. However, I used the term to address the fact that he was muslim, because jihad in a linguistic sense means striving (to be a better person). It is more often than not misused in the media, as it is by terrorist groups to radicalize individuals. So apologize if you thought by jihad I meant he was a radical muslim terrorist. I only used Jihad, because others before him called him a muslim and Jihad is a term to describe those scholars of Islam who make an effort to live according to Islamic law. It might have been clumsy to use this term though, so thanks for pointing it out.
By the way a friend’s name is Jihad.. Poor thing doesn’t have it easy these days.



@ZuriRollt

@ Lorena 1 - you want to practice what you preach?
You've groaned at me in around 5-6 posts today, within 2 different threads.

I've no problem with this - but I did listen to your defence statements to this terrorist without comment or groans for a good couple of days...

I wasn't aware I was preaching. Can you say what exactly you mean? If you meant my post on acting civilized than yes I stand behind it. Did not think groaning would be hurtful for you, so I apologize and will not comment or groan on you in the future. What happened is I found some of the things you’ve said questionable,looked up what other things you’ve said and those Ive found silly or ignorant I’ve groaned at. No big deal but if it bothers you overly much, I’ll un-groan (is that possible?). It was never my intention to hurt you.

Back to the topic: I was one of the first to say how thankful I was that those guys acted how they did. Hero is a widely used term nowadays but in this case it is more than justified to call them heroes.
You have to be able to differentiate between appropriate acting when a crime is being committed and that afterwards My comments on correct definitions of terrorism vs other crimes, as well as stereotyping are in relation to the post-crime / trial phase. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
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  #142  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:02
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

[QUOTE=lorena1;2439020][COLOR="Blue"]


@ZuriRollt

@ Lorena 1 - you want to practice what you preach?
You've groaned at me in around 5-6 posts today, within 2 different threads.

I've no problem with this - but I did listen to your defence statements to this terrorist without comment or groans for a good couple of days...

I wasn't aware I was preaching. Can you say what exactly you mean? If you meant my post on acting civilized than yes I stand behind it. Did not think groaning would be hurtful for you, so I apologize and will not comment or groan on you in the future. What happened is I found some of the things you’ve said questionable,looked up what other things you’ve said and those Ive found silly or ignorant I’ve groaned at. No big deal but if it bothers you overly much, I’ll un-groan (is that possible?). It was never my intention to hurt you.


I certainly wasn't hurt by you , I just don't find it very civilised behaviour.

Last edited by ZuriRollt; 25.08.2015 at 10:26.
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  #143  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:09
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

@lorena1: Did you actually have a point you wanted to make?
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  #144  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:27
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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@lorena1: Did you actually have a point you wanted to make?

The last paragraph of her post?


Or are you doing that selective reading thing you do so much again?
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  #145  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:32
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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You have to be able to differentiate between appropriate acting when a crime is being committed and that afterwards My comments on correct definitions of terrorism vs other crimes, as well as stereotyping are in relation to the post-crime / trial phase. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
For the sake of argument you could say that "a middle-eastern gentleman, heavily armed and firing off a gun on a crowded train" is the sound of hooves and that a "hungry immigrant" is a zebra.

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  #146  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:36
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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The last paragraph of her post?

Or are you doing that selective reading thing you do so much again?
I think two short sentences would have covered it. Wasn't sure which 12 year old to psychoanalyse.
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  #147  
Old 25.08.2015, 10:57
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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However, I used the term to address the fact that he was muslim, because jihad in a linguistic sense means striving (to be a better person). It is more often than not misused in the media, as it is by terrorist groups to radicalize individuals. So apologize if you thought by jihad I meant he was a radical muslim terrorist. I only used Jihad, because others before him called him a muslim and Jihad is a term to describe those scholars of Islam who make an effort to live according to Islamic law. It might have been clumsy to use this term though, so thanks for pointing it out.


.[/COLOR]

You might want to revise your knowledge re. certain terms you appear to be not very familiar with.
Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition. Many observers—both Muslim[6] and non-Muslim[7]—as well as the Dictionary of Islam,[3] talk of jihad having two meanings: an inner spiritual struggle (the "greater jihad"), and an outer physical struggle against the enemies of Islam (the "lesser jihad")[3][8] which may take a violent or non-violent form.[1][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Apparently is the "lesser Jihad" that's causing some confusions and problems.
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  #148  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:02
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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About "whether the man was a mentally ill, a right wing fanatic or something else." whatever of these categories he fits into he is still a terrorist; he opened fire with an automatic weapon on unarmed civilians.
That makes any and every ordinary criminal who fires his gun at a civilian, typically his victim, a terrorist.
Interesting definition

Note:
A terrorist is a criminal, but a criminal (even if he fires a gun) isn't automatically a terrorist. Actually, most of the latter aren't.
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  #149  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:19
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Exactly. Stereotyping is very pervasive as this thread shows, but it's pointless to make assumptions before we have any information.



@Marton,
LOL, if you want to point at someone who refuses to respond to posts that challenge their concepts then try looking in a mirror

can you give concrete examples?


About "it impossible to have a constructive discussion." true when you keep trying to spin other peoples posts into claims of Islamic terrorism or Jihadists when you are the only one using these labels.

No spinning here. I think I’ve been pretty clear. But thanks for mentioning that. I realize I should have said muslim, like others before me, because as your comments show, Jihad is a term that’s loaded with mistranslated concepts and has many meanings. Ironically, I've used the term to point out how silly it is to make assumptions based on one's own perceptions and you rightly recognized it to be wrong.

As you pointed it out, you interpreted it as a radical religion, or perhaps holy war. However, I used the term to address the fact that he was muslim, because jihad in a linguistic sense means striving (to be a better person). It is more often than not misused in the media, as it is by terrorist groups to radicalize individuals. So apologize if you thought by jihad I meant he was a radical muslim terrorist. I only used Jihad, because others before him called him a muslim and Jihad is a term to describe those scholars of Islam who make an effort to live according to Islamic law. It might have been clumsy to use this term though, so thanks for pointing it out.
By the way a friend’s name is Jihad.. Poor thing doesn’t have it easy these days.



@ZuriRollt

@ Lorena 1 - you want to practice what you preach?
You've groaned at me in around 5-6 posts today, within 2 different threads.

I've no problem with this - but I did listen to your defence statements to this terrorist without comment or groans for a good couple of days...

I wasn't aware I was preaching. Can you say what exactly you mean? If you meant my post on acting civilized than yes I stand behind it. Did not think groaning would be hurtful for you, so I apologize and will not comment or groan on you in the future. What happened is I found some of the things you’ve said questionable,looked up what other things you’ve said and those Ive found silly or ignorant I’ve groaned at. No big deal but if it bothers you overly much, I’ll un-groan (is that possible?). It was never my intention to hurt you.

Back to the topic: I was one of the first to say how thankful I was that those guys acted how they did. Hero is a widely used term nowadays but in this case it is more than justified to call them heroes.
You have to be able to differentiate between appropriate acting when a crime is being committed and that afterwards My comments on correct definitions of terrorism vs other crimes, as well as stereotyping are in relation to the post-crime / trial phase. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
About "Jihad is a term to describe those scholars of Islam who make an effort to live according to Islamic law" I think your memory is failing, the term you used is Jihadist; which is commonly used to describe an Islamic terrorist. You did not use the term Jihad so your whole paragraph is incorrect.

About can you give concrete examples? I am sure you can do your own reading.

About "correct definitions of terrorism vs other crimes" Now you are trying to change the discussion; we were discussing the definition of a terrorist vs a criminal which is not possible since there is a big overlap.

About "I've used the term to point out how silly it is to make assumptions based on one's own perceptions" Actually you were the one making silly assumptions; because people correctly described him as a Muslim you incorrectly assumed they were saying he was an Islamic terrorist.
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  #150  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:28
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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...but it's pointless to make assumptions before we have any information.
Isn't an assumption, by definition, made when there is a lack of information?

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  #151  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:34
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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About "Jihad is a term to describe those scholars of Islam who make an effort to live according to Islamic law" I think your memory is failing, the term you used is Jihadist; which is commonly used to describe an Islamic terrorist. You did not use the term Jihad so your whole paragraph is incorrect.

About can you give concrete examples? I am sure you can do your own reading.

About "correct definitions of terrorism vs other crimes" Now you are trying to change the discussion; we were discussing the definition of a terrorist vs a criminal which is not possible since there is a big overlap.

About "I've used the term to point out how silly it is to make assumptions based on one's own perceptions" Actually you were the one making silly assumptions; because people correctly described him as a Muslim you incorrectly assumed they were saying he was an Islamic terrorist.
He he, Marton. You haven't read all those posts carefully. She didn't do that (there were others who made those "silly" assumptions after having all the info from the media) but I think the case is clear (for the moment) and find all the discussion irrelevant.
Fortunately there were no victims.
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  #152  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:44
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Fortunately there were no victims.
...except for the poor, hungry Moroccan man who was beat up by a gang of Americans
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  #153  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:45
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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He he, Marton. You haven't read all those posts carefully. She didn't do that (there were others who made those "silly" assumptions after having all the info from the media) but I think the case is clear (for the moment) and find all the discussion irrelevant.
Fortunately there were no victims.
Hardly. The professor got shot in the chest and neck and one of the marines had a thumb almost severed.
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  #154  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:54
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Can we go back to the French train please? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34042780

News on the BBC about the train crew locking themselves in a service room, "without waving any white flags" - they were certainly in a hurry!

Let's mention the yet unnamed Frenchman and the Armenian who helped the 3 Americans


Plus what about BELGIUM. The mess started in Brussels which happens to be in Belgium
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  #155  
Old 25.08.2015, 11:58
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Let's mention the yet unnamed Frenchman and the Armenian who helped the 3 Americans
He has been named as Professor Mark Moogalian and although he lives in France, he's originally from Virginia, U.S.
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  #156  
Old 25.08.2015, 12:07
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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He has been named as Professor Mark Moogalian and although he lives in France, he's originally from Virginia, U.S.

NO, Moogalian is the Armenian I mean. The Name of the French chap is still not known.
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  #157  
Old 25.08.2015, 12:20
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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He he, Marton. You haven't read all those posts carefully. She didn't do that (there were others who made those "silly" assumptions after having all the info from the media) but I think the case is clear (for the moment) and find all the discussion irrelevant.
Fortunately there were no victims.
Well three out of four is not bad.
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  #158  
Old 25.08.2015, 12:24
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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NO, Moogalian is the Armenian I mean. The Name of the French chap is still not known.
Mark Moogalian is the French-American academic, 51, was in a hospital recovering from a gunshot wound. Before the other men got involved, Moogalian tried to take away the suspect's rifle but the man shot Moogalian in the neck with a Luger pistol.
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Old 25.08.2015, 13:46
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Mark Moogalian is the French-American academic, 51, was in a hospital recovering from a gunshot wound. Before the other men got involved, Moogalian tried to take away the suspect's rifle but the man shot Moogalian in the neck with a Luger pistol.

That makes it clear.- Non two persons but one. Armenian-American-French descent apparently confused the cops
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Old 25.08.2015, 14:08
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Re: Two US Marines take down a gunman on a Paris train

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Hardly. The professor got shot in the chest and neck and one of the marines had a thumb almost severed.
I meant no-one has died, sorry. (I read somewhere there were "minor" injuries) Hope he'll recover soon.
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