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  #81  
Old 14.04.2016, 13:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

I wonder what our leaders would now do if they had the chance to do a full rewind of time to before the crisis, while retaining knowledge of what was going to happen...
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  #82  
Old 14.04.2016, 14:02
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I wonder what our leaders would now do if they had the chance to do a full rewind of time to before the crisis, while retaining knowledge of what was going to happen...
Probably exactly the same way, there are only a few ways politicians can react, imagine the outcry if Merkel had refused entry, the opposition would have had a blast, imagine the liberal outrage if the borders had closed the first time some pigmentaly challenged person came and said "Hi my name is Abdullah and I am a refugee"
Germany, France, Sweden, etc. etc. etc would have lost their shit if Hungary, Greece or Turkey had herded the refugees into Concentration camps. Imagine italy´s outrage if Austria or France had told Rome to "deal with it"
Nope, in my humble opinion Europe has dealt with the crises as best as they could.
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  #83  
Old 14.04.2016, 14:08
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Probably exactly the same way, there are only a few ways politicians can react, imagine the outcry if Merkel had refused entry, the opposition would have had a blast, imagine the liberal outrage if the borders had closed the first time some pigmentaly challenged person came and said "Hi my name is Abdullah and I am a refugee"
Germany, France, Sweden, etc. etc. etc would have lost their shit if Hungary, Greece or Turkey had herded the refugees into Concentration camps. Imagine italy´s outrage if Austria or France had told Rome to "deal with it"
Nope, in my humble opinion Europe has dealt with the crises as best as they could.
I agree that they would have dealt with it in the same way even with the benefit of hindsight, because politicians are that pig-headed. I don't think they've dealt with it as best they could though.

With Europe refusing to confront the issue there's been a surge in the extreme right. We see now that with the borders closed very few people are making the trip across from Turkey. The same outcome would have been achieved if the borders had been shut at the very start of the crisis. And there wouldn't be a million and a half wanderlings with nothing to do in Northern Europe.
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  #84  
Old 14.04.2016, 14:26
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I agree that they would have dealt with it in the same way even with the benefit of hindsight, because politicians are that pig-headed. I don't think they've dealt with it as best they could though.

With Europe refusing to confront the issue there's been a surge in the extreme right. We see now that with the borders closed very few people are making the trip across from Turkey. The same outcome would have been achieved if the borders had been shut at the very start of the crisis. And there wouldn't be a million and a half wanderlings with nothing to do in Northern Europe.
Even if the borders had been closed right from the beginning, they would simply have found another way in, for instance there are growing concerns that freighters can be used to "ferry" refugees by the thousands to any port or beach in Europe. Think about it, a few miles from the coast the ship starts to sink, or even simpler they ram it up onto the beach like they do in Alang
Then, the thousands that are hanging out near the barbed wire at Ceuta or other places along the North African coast, all waiting for the first opportunity to cross over the med.
If the politicians had had the gift of hindsight then Gadaffi would still be alive the Shah would still be in Perisa, Saddam would still rule in Iraq.
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Old 14.04.2016, 14:42
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Even if the borders had been closed right from the beginning, they would simply have found another way in, for instance there are growing concerns that freighters can be used to "ferry" refugees by the thousands to any port or beach in Europe. Think about it, a few miles from the coast the ship starts to sink, or even simpler they ram it up onto the beach like they do in Alang
Then, the thousands that are hanging out near the barbed wire at Ceuta or other places along the North African coast, all waiting for the first opportunity to cross over the med.
If the politicians had had the gift of hindsight then Gadaffi would still be alive the Shah would still be in Perisa, Saddam would still rule in Iraq.
You're right, migrants are always going to try and reach Europe. But by making the journey more difficult and expensive acts as a deterrent. The main reason so many came last year was due to how easy it was to hop over from Turkey and make the long walk through the Balkans.

Despite what the press would have you believe the short trip from Turkey to Lesbos is a doddle, especially when compared with the 300 odd miles that separate Libya and Italy.

Even with the odd large ship laden full coming from North Africa, there'll never be the same numbers as which came up through the Balkans.
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Old 14.04.2016, 15:12
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Its because, for the most part, they are. People are always going to move to greener pastures, wherever they may be. The more difficult you make it, the more underhand their method become. History has taught us that plenty.

We're going in circles now - you condradict yourself and you are in fact against any and all border controls...


Not what i said either. It was an example of binary thinking that contributed to our current problem. We disagreed with Assad. We armed his enemies. We fed the war. We now have to deal with the consequences of that war.

It would also help if the people of these 'shitholes' would also prevent them from turning into 'shitholes' to begin with. How is this all Europe's fault and responsibility?

No one is saying it is. It is Europes responsibility to look after itself. But there comes a point where it damages itself by trying to prevent the inevitable, and wastes billions doing so. PS, the syrian war isnt ethnic, its a civil war, precipitated by opposition to a tyrannical government. Im glad you know how to end the war - who knew it was a simple of developing an identity. I guess the flagrant abuse of power, the devastating socio-economic factors, the political suffocation of all opposition, the murder of civilians protesting...all these things could be solved with a national identity!

Damaging itself by trying to prevent the inevitable? That's like saying Rome should have just invited all of it's enemies over for a day at the zoo, petting rainbow unicorns together- the republic would have held up really well, no? You're blind if you think the Syrian war has nothing to do with ethnicity - the Sunnis are just waiting to kill off the Alawites. Same with the Kurds. This is why Assad has been allowed to remain in power for so long - if not, they'll likely be a genocide. Do you not follow the news?
And yes, all of these things could be solved with a national identity - it's the modus operundi of the development of democracy - and the reason that the Ticinese, Romandie, and Swiss Germans aren't still at each other's throats after all these years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectar...rian_Civil_War


Because slaves generally cant do anything against their masters. What exactly do you want them to do? Do you have any actual suggestions other than "GO HOME!!!!!!" ? Try to read up on the situation in Eritrea and you may find a better understanding of why people are leaving. Then ask, why are we investing so little into actually changing the narrative, so that people dont feel the need as much to get away from that hellhole.

Who's saying 'go home'? You repeatedly suggest that i'm against humanitarian cause of granting asylum to those in need - because that's just what you want to believe. Does it make you feel better? What is your solution, anyway? Another Iraq or Libya? Would that be better for the people of Eritrea?


Yes, well done on stranding thousands of people. The point is, my dear friend, these people have not disappeared, have they? they havent given up and gone home, have they? They are still there, still trying to get in. we haven't solved the problem, just pushed it further down the timeline. These people, if they are determined to get in, will get in whether illegally or not, or will die trying.

Where have you read that they are refusing to go to Greek reception centres? Source please.


They are not 'stranded' FFS, Idomeni is not an island. Sources? Haven't you been reading the news? I can't be bothered to search for it right now - though i've read it more than 5 times now in various mainstream new outlets. If they go to the reception centers, they will have to register. And in registering, they might not be able to make it to Germany or Sweden. If they stay right at the border, they have a chance of rushing through if it opens (or storming it if it doesn't open)


Again, binary thinking. minding our own business is going to be of no help. The world is getting smaller and smaller, and what happens thousands of miles away affects us more today than at any other point in history. We have no real choice in the matter. Washing our hands of the matter and watching dead children wash up on shore is not a real option. There are ways of conducting foreign policy, without it being at the business end of an M-16.

Sorry, but i'm not swayed by an image of a dead child - This mentality of yours, and Merkel's policy, encouraged a surge of dangerous rubber dingy boat trips, human smugglers, etc - and the deaths of hundreds of more children at sea . It's like waving a million dollars at a poor person - who only needs to survive a round or two of Russian roulette to win it from you. So kind.


To be honest, the same applies to them. Where it makes sense, for security or for judicial reasons, they should be deported. But where there is no real benefit in exporting people that have just been imported, only for them to be imported again, and continue the cycle ad nauseum, this course of action shouldn't be forced. .

Let me get this straight - you're against border controls, but think that people who have already been granted asylum should be deported? OMG, not even Orban would suggest something like that. Did you forget to drink your V8 this morning?


We've covered that - they can find a better life there then they can ever hope for from where they have come.

And the rest of the EU? What's wrong with it? No options to build a better life than in war-ravaged Syria? what a joke of an argument - they want the money. The handouts. Who can blame them - if you offer a free buffet to strangers, don't be surprised when they prefer the lobster to the frozen fish sticks. It's not their fault, it's the EU's for being so naive. As in, paying Afghans 3+ years of average Afghani salary as a payoff to return home. That'll stop them from coming...
I'm done arguing with you, you're either extremely thick headed, a troll, or both - given how you keep contradicting your own arguments.

buh-bye

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Old 14.04.2016, 15:44
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I'm done arguing with you, you're either extremely thick headed, a troll, or both - given how you keep contradicting your own arguments.

buh-bye
You're done arguing because you have nothing to respond with. You've shot your load, and have nothing else to offer. Toodles.

If politicians had the benefit of hindsight, then as Slammer points out, the middle east would still be ruled by a small number of autocratic people. while being far from an ideal situation, those individuals could be diplomatically engaged. War would have been avoided, and this crises would not be a crises.

The US would not have pissed away $1.7 trillion, dead kids wouldn't be washing up on Europe's shores, and the world would likely be a safer place. while 9/11 may have still occurred, there is a good chance Paris, London and Brussels could have been avoided.
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Old 14.04.2016, 16:24
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

We're going in circles now - you condradict yourself and you are in fact against any and all border controls...

Quote me on that. where did i say abolish border controls? We need borders, but its stupid to think we can shut them down, keep everyone out, and pretend as though nothing is going on. Sooner or later, Europe will need to deal with the thousands of people.


It would also help if the people of these 'shitholes' would also prevent them from turning into 'shitholes' to begin with. How is this all Europe's fault and responsibility?

The greatest help would have been if we hadnt helped those people make the shitholes by selling them and giving them bulelts and bombs with which to reduce those places to shitholes. European nations (the UK most of all) sold and are still making money by supplying the regimes in those areas. What do we think will happen to the guns and bombs we sell? Will they be put in storage for a rainy day? No, they will be used, and likely against those with no means to respond


Damaging itself by trying to prevent the inevitable? That's like saying Rome should have just invited all of it's enemies over for a day at the zoo, petting rainbow unicorns together- the republic would have held up really well, no? You're blind if you think the Syrian war has nothing to do with ethnicity - the Sunnis are just waiting to kill off the Alawites. Same with the Kurds. This is why Assad has been allowed to remain in power for so long - if not, they'll likely be a genocide. Do you not follow the news?
And yes, all of these things could be solved with a national identity - it's the modus operundi of the development of democracy - and the reason that the Ticinese, Romandie, and Swiss Germans aren't still at each other's throats after all these years.

Rome? As in, Ancient Rome? riiight. Because the modern EU is, in every way, identical to the Roman Empire. PS, the roman empire actually did accept refugees and migrants, and gave them purpose. You should research what the auxilia units of the roman empire consisted of and the benefit they conferred.

People have wanted to hurt and harm each other since day one but lacked the ability to do so - but when we give them guns and bombs, that restriction suddenly disappears. Saddam never made any secret of his plan to kill the kurds - yet we still sold him millions of arms. The same applies to the saudis and the rebels. Russia still sold Iran and Sirya weapons - despite there being no secret about who they would be used on. Assad has remained in power because of his Russian allies, Its a bit simplistic to put it down to ethnic sensibilites, and implies you have a very poor understanding of what actually kicked off the process.



Who's saying 'go home'? You repeatedly suggest that i'm against humanitarian cause of granting asylum to those in need - because that's just what you want to believe. Does it make you feel better? What is your solution, anyway? Another Iraq or Libya? Would that be better for the people of Eritrea?

God, no. The last thing we need is yet another Iraq/Libya.
I am no international statesman or diplomat, but i'llgive it a shot. I would concentrate on Eritrea itself - use diplomatic means to force the government to change. They wish to portray themselves as a legitimate government, give them the opportunity to do so. We have a UN - use them to administer emergency accommodation and support to people fleeing Eritrea. People fleeing Eritrea need to go through either Ethiopia or Sudan - both countries which could be diplomatically engaged. UN Administered accommodation and help for those fleeing Eritrea in neighbouring nations, without those same people needing to carry on going to Europe. If necessary, protected by UN Peacekeepers. It is far easier to settle people from Eritrea in Sudan and Ethiopia rather than in Europe. Some could go across the red sea, but i doubt many make that journey considering there is another warzone on the other side. Help Sudan and Ethiopia settle these people and a large majority wont continue making the journey to Europe. Currently, Sudan and Ethiopia offer little better than Eritrea - change this. Work with the African Union to get the whole continent pulling in the same direction.

Again, im no statesman, and these plans would need a lot of work. But its surely better then the current situation continuing ad nauseum. It wont be easy, but then again, real diplomacy never is.



They are not 'stranded' FFS, Idomeni is not an island even if it is on one. Sources? Haven't you been reading the news? I can't be bothered to search for it right now - though i've read it more than 5 times now in various mainstream new outlets. If they go to the reception centers, they will have to register. And in registering, they might not be able to make it to Germany or Sweden. If they stay right at the border, they have a chance of rushing through if it opens (or storming it if it doesn't open)

So, no reputable sources. e should just take your word for it. Ok.


Sorry, but i'm not swayed by an image of a dead child - This mentality of yours, and Merkel's policy, encouraged a surge of dangerous rubber dingy boat trips, human smugglers, etc - and the deaths of hundreds of more children at sea . It's like waving a million dollars at a poor person - who only needs to survive a round or two of Russian roulette to win it from you. So kind.

No, the war, death, murder, destruction, rape, genocide, chemical warfare, terrorism, and chaos did that. If what you say is true, this would have happened decades ago. Why is this crisis only now unfolding?

And im not ashamed to admit, the lifeless body of a child on a beach did affect me. It angered me that in the 21st century, in this day and age, we still stand for situations that allow dead little boys to wash up on beaches.




Let me get this straight - you're against border controls, but think that people who have already been granted asylum should be deported? OMG, not even Orban would suggest something like that. Did you forget to drink your V8 this morning?

No, dunce. let me bold it again:

Where it makes sense, for security or for judicial reasons, they should be deported

In other words, if they pose a direct physical threat to us, or if they are judged to have committed crimes so serious they no longer warrant the new life they have been offered, then they have given up their life here, and i have no qualms about deportation. Nowhere did i say i am against border controls, so stop peddling that myth.




And the rest of the EU? What's wrong with it? No options to build a better life than in war-ravaged Syria? what a joke of an argument - they want the money. The handouts. Who can blame them - if you offer a free buffet to strangers, don't be surprised when they prefer the lobster to the frozen fish sticks. It's not their fault, it's the EU's for being so naive. As in, paying Afghans 3+ years of average Afghani salary as a payoff to return home. That'll stop them from coming...


Nothing - and while they may believe they have the right to settle where they like, they do not have that right, and nor have i claimed that they do. As long as they are given a real chance to better themselves, they can settle where there is space. They may have a first choice, but Europe does not need to offer that luxury. It can offer them a safe space, and security, without pandering.

That argument, that they are here for handouts - is poisonous. I have yet to see a reputable source suggest that this is the case. I have yet to meet a refugee who was unwilling to work. I seriously doubt that many refugees are coming here to take advantage of the truly enormous 21CHF they get. I have, on the other hand, met many Europeans who believe they are entitled, because they had the good fortune of being born within certain arbitrary geographical lines.

Where is your reputable source for this claim?

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Old 14.04.2016, 17:03
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Sigh, one last time

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Quote me on that. where did i say abolish border controls? We need borders, but its stupid to think we can shut them down, keep everyone out, and pretend as though nothing is going on. Sooner or later, Europe will need to deal with the thousands of people.


"That's just it though - trying to stop people coming to Europe to find a better life, whether they are refugees, economic migrants or those fleeing persecution, is a fruitless endeavour." - j2488


The greatest help would have been if we hadnt helped those people make the shitholes by selling them and giving them bulelts and bombs with which to reduce those places to shitholes. European nations (the UK most of all) sold and are still making money by supplying the regimes in those areas. What do we think will happen to the guns and bombs we sell? Will they be put in storage for a rainy day? No, they will be used, and likely against those with no means to respond

And?... so problems caused by meddling in ME affairs can be solved by more meddling in ME affairs?


Assad has remained in power because of his Russian allies, Its a bit simplistic to put it down to ethnic sensibilites, and implies you have a very poor understanding of what actually kicked off the process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectar...rian_Civil_War



So, no reputable sources. e should just take your word for it. Ok.

or read the news...:

http://www.euronews.com/2016/04/11/a...-refugee-camp/

"In the last week of March a fleet of buses arrived at the sprawling camp. The authorities hoped to transfer 1,000 to nearby refugee camps. Few wanted to move and in the end they were reluctant to board as no one was told to where they would be taken.

Of the fleet of 20 vehicles only four left Idomeni with any passengers."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...t-to-eu-values

"“We don’t care if the border is closed,” says Masru Hamdi, a young Afghan as he treks along a winding road, backpack in hand, towards the frontier. “We will wait.”

Appeals to relocate to government shelters further inland have invariably fallen on deaf ears. And prime minister Alexis Tsipras’s leftist-led coalition has insisted it will not resort to force to resettle the immigrants."

http://www.independent.mk/articles/3...eception+Camps

"The European Commission has called on the migrants flocking at Idomeni as of Monday morning to go to the legal refugee camps set up by authorities across Greece."

Is that enough for you?


No, the war, death, murder, destruction, rape, genocide, chemical warfare, terrorism, and chaos did that. If what you say is true, this would have happened decades ago. Why is this crisis only now unfolding?

And im not ashamed to admit, the lifeless body of a child on a beach did affect me. It angered me that in the 21st century, in this day and age, we still stand for situations that allow dead little boys to wash up on beaches.


Internet, smart phones, relatives in Germany spreading the myth of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Europe weakened by the EU and now caving...

About the dead kids on the beach - yeah, it's sad. It angers me more to encourage others to take the same risks with their children just for better financial prospects in Europe as opposed to Turkey, where they were already safely away from the war zone.


No, dunce. let me bold it again:

Where it makes sense, for security or for judicial reasons, they should be deported

In other words, if they pose a direct physical threat to us, or if they are judged to have committed crimes so serious they no longer warrant the new life they have been offered, then they have given up their life here, and i have no qualms about deportation. Nowhere did i say i am against border controls, so stop peddling that myth.


again: "That's just it though - trying to stop people coming to Europe to find a better life, whether they are refugees, economic migrants or those fleeing persecution, is a fruitless endeavour." - j2488


Nothing - and while they may believe they have the right to settle where they like, they do not have that right, and nor have i claimed that they do. As long as they are given a real chance to better themselves, they can settle where there is space. They may have a first choice, but Europe does not need to offer that luxury. It can offer them a safe space, and security, without pandering.


Ok, so now you agree they're NOT 'stuck' in Idomeni...
really, I'm done now. Not because i've shot my load, lol, but because your argument is limp.
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Old 15.04.2016, 00:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

No viagra on the bedside cabinet? ... it was just getting exciting.
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Old 15.04.2016, 00:42
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Even if the borders had been closed right from the beginning, they would simply have found another way in, for instance there are growing concerns that freighters can be used to "ferry" refugees by the thousands to any port or beach in Europe.
Spot on. These people can't live a life in Syria. That's why they are fleeing. Neither Turkey wants nor Greece can integrate them to their societies. Turkey wouldn't want more Arabs and Kurds in Turkey and Greece can't even provide a decent living to its current residents. Even if this barb-wire closed borders policy seems to be successful at stopping refugees from entering North Europe, this will only be temporary. New routes will be found in just a fw months. Just wait for the summer to come.

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If the politicians had had the gift of hindsight then Gadaffi would still be alive the Shah would still be in Perisa, Saddam would still rule in Iraq.
Saddam and Gaddafi were overthrown thanks to external intervention (weapons, logistics, information or even direct military operation), while the Shah fell despite there was external help to him.he was receiving external help.
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Old 15.04.2016, 00:46
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while 9/11 may have still occurred, there is a good chance Paris, London and Brussels could have been avoided.
Even 9/11 wouldn't have happened if the US could see that their beloved Mujahideed would evolve into Taliban and then Al-Qaeda. But even if they could see would they make the right choice? Well, history is not written with "ifs", but "ifs" make good stories.
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Old 15.04.2016, 03:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Even 9/11 wouldn't have happened if the US could see that their beloved Mujahideed would evolve into Taliban and then Al-Qaeda. But even if they could see would they make the right choice? Well, history is not written with "ifs", but "ifs" make good stories.
No viagra - just still going

Don't think for a minute that the US gives half a shit about the stability of the region - it has been the unspoken policy of the US for decades to create instability around the globe, making it oh so easy to come in and extract the resources or at the very least, prevent the locals from organizing into a formidable force. (of course, always sold and justified to the American public as spreading Democracy). Just look at the history of the US and CIA in Latin America - i'm almost ashamed to be an American.

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Old 15.04.2016, 08:35
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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No viagra - just still going

Don't think for a minute that the US gives half a shit about the stability of the region - it has been the unspoken policy of the US for decades to create instability around the globe, making it oh so easy to come in and extract the resources or at the very least, prevent the locals from organizing into a formidable force. (of course, always sold and justified to the American public as spreading Democracy). Just look at the history of the US and CIA in Latin America - i'm almost ashamed to be an American.
Not only US. US has done it with the military and so on, rest assured there are other Western states who are doing exactly the same things only without armies.
The loser is always the local who is then forced into immigration. Phenomenon that causes horror and outrage in some countries which are willingly not looking into the causes.
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Old 16.04.2016, 18:42
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Some useful figures, ... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911
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Old 18.04.2016, 15:40
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Reports are starting to come in that around 400 people have drowned trying to get from from Egypt to Europe.
So much for all the smugness at closing the Balkan route...
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Old 18.04.2016, 16:03
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Reports are starting to come in that around 400 people have drowned trying to get from from Egypt to Europe.
So much for all the smugness at closing the Balkan route...
400 Africans, mainly Somalis. Likely of which none were refugees and had no right to be in Europe.

And that's 400, which is well shy of the 7000 or so that were arriving in Greece per day last summer. Of course migrants will continue to make their attempts to get to Europe, but not in the same numbers with the Balkan route shut, making the crisis more manageable.
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Old 18.04.2016, 16:09
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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400 Africans, mainly Somalis. Likely of which none were refugees and had no right to be in Europe.

And that's 400, which is well shy of the 7000 or so that were arriving in Greece per day last summer. Of course migrants will continue to make their attempts to get to Europe, but not in the same numbers with the Balkan route shut, making the crisis more manageable.
Yes but 400 did not die in the balkans, and there are a lot of boats in Africa
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Old 18.04.2016, 16:16
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Yes but 400 did not die in the balkans, and there are a lot of boats in Africa
So do you think it should be easier for them to come to Europe to avoid deaths?
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Old 18.04.2016, 16:23
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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400 Africans, mainly Somalis. Likely of which none were refugees and had no right to be in Europe.

And that's 400, which is well shy of the 7000 or so that were arriving in Greece per day last summer. Of course migrants will continue to make their attempts to get to Europe, but not in the same numbers with the Balkan route shut, making the crisis more manageable.
Not refugees, because nobody is fleeing fighting in Somalia? So much sympathy for death and those fleeing conflict and instability, wow you truly are a nice person!

https://www.amnesty.ch/de/laender/af...FTUW0wodmZcGMw

There is war and terror being waged all over Africa at the moment.
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