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  #601  
Old 17.09.2015, 11:57
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I think Russia and America can be happy; this construction is going to fall apart. I'm not happy for that because the EU membership has cost my country (and other countries too) a lot so far and am worried that Eastern Europe we'll be forced to look again towards East...
Both eastern and southern Europe basically joined a club that wasn't setup with them in mind and had to play by rules that were not made for them. In the early years they were kept happy by massive payments. Ultimately the old EU countries and especially Germany were buying the friendship and support of the new countries. But one sided transactions are not a good basis for a partnership, especially if the money had strings attached saying you must do this or that and so preventing these countries from addressing their real priorities.

It is only right that these countries rock the boat. I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier. To rock the boat is not to be against Europe in principle but is to protest against this Europe. This is not the same thing.
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  #602  
Old 17.09.2015, 12:22
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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Both eastern and southern Europe basically joined a club that wasn't setup with them in mind and had to play by rules that were not made for them. In the early years they were kept happy by massive payments. Ultimately the old EU countries and especially Germany were buying the friendship and support of the new countries. But one sided transactions are not a good basis for a partnership, especially if the money had strings attached saying you must do this or that and so preventing these countries from addressing their real priorities.

It is only right that these countries rock the boat. I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier. To rock the boat is not to be against Europe in principle but is to protest against this Europe. This is not the same thing.

What's wrong with Germany and their harsh leadership tendencies? Instead of working together with other EU states for mutual benefit to resolve underlying problems, they always want to run the show and impose on other countries their crap conditions. Treat everyone with respect as equal business partner or go stuff yourself in your own misery
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  #603  
Old 17.09.2015, 12:25
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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Both eastern and southern Europe basically joined a club that wasn't setup with them in mind and had to play by rules that were not made for them. In the early years they were kept happy by massive payments. Ultimately the old EU countries and especially Germany were buying the friendship and support of the new countries. But one sided transactions are not a good basis for a partnership, especially if the money had strings attached saying you must do this or that and so preventing these countries from addressing their real priorities.

It is only right that these countries rock the boat. I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier. To rock the boat is not to be against Europe in principle but is to protest against this Europe. This is not the same thing.
I don't agree with everything you said here. If your argument was valid, then this club hadn't been set up having UK in mind either, since they always tried playing and even succeeded doing that, by their own rules. See the non-acceptance of refugees quotas which is based on their privileged agreements.
I don't know about these countries rocking the boat because being part of the club has cost them tremendously - in terms of own industry, resources, independence etc costs which were not correlated with achieving much in economical and social terms.
But I think I can see the signs that they will definitely try to be more proactive in regards with common policies, if the whole construction will resist of course. What they oppose more it's not this refugee crisis, which will be sorted out somehow, in the end; it's the precedent this present mismanagement of a crisis will set for the next years or decades to come. If anything, some good things are happening, even I personally regret that real people and not numbers as EC has put it are suffering now at the gates of some borders no-one really wanted to open for them and were misled by populist and irresponsible declarations.
  #604  
Old 17.09.2015, 12:27
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I think Russia and America can be happy; this construction is going to fall apart. I'm not happy for that because the EU membership has cost my country (and other countries too) a lot so far and am worried that Eastern Europe we'll be forced to look again towards East...
You're right. Germany and France's exclusionary attitude towards the Visigrad states may nudge them towards the welcoming arms of Putin's Russia. If they can't relate to the heavy handed ways of Mama Merkel and Papa EU, they may find something more appealing there, while Uncle Sam is in rehab.

I am sooooo glad CH never joined this ship of fools.
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Old 17.09.2015, 12:44
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I don't agree with everything you said here. If your argument was valid, then this club hadn't been set up having UK in mind either, since they always tried playing and even succeeded doing that, by their own rules. See the non-acceptance of refugees quotas which is based on their privileged agreements.
The UK joined at a much earlier point and was a co-architect of many of the loopholes it is now exploiting. Especially Mrs Thatcher was a tough negotiator who didn't always play it by the Marquess of Queensbury's rulebook and regularly drove the likes of Delors to the verge of a exasperation over seemingly minor details - but finally it did get her what she wanted. The eastern European countries were not given the opportunity of renegotiating fundamental questions in the same way but were told they could accept the EU as it was or stay outside but that the fundamentals were not up for discussion. The large wads of cash that were about to flow their way no doubt also took them off their guard. You don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that, and not all agreements were scrutinized as well as they should have been. And I think they are slowly waking up to the nature of the mess they so gladly welcomed.
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  #606  
Old 17.09.2015, 12:55
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I am sooooo glad CH never joined this ship of fools.
Yep, it's exactly how I'd describe the current status....
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  #607  
Old 17.09.2015, 12:55
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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The UK joined at a much earlier point and was a co-architect of many of the loopholes it is now exploiting. Especially Mrs Thatcher was a tough negotiator who didn't always play it by the Marquess of Queensbury's rulebook and regularly drove the likes of Delors to the verge of a exasperation over seemingly minor details - but finally it did get her what she wanted. The eastern European countries were not given the opportunity of renegotiating fundamental questions in the same way but were told they could accept the EU as it was or stay outside but that the fundamentals were not up for discussion. The large wads of cash that were about to flow their way no doubt also took them off their guard. You don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that, and not all agreements were scrutinized as well as they should have been. And I think they are slowly waking up to the nature of the mess they so gladly welcomed.
If they had joined the EURO zone then it would have been like a final torpedo fired to the hull of the siniking boat
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  #608  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:15
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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You're right. Germany and France's exclusionary attitude towards the Visigrad states may nudge them towards the welcoming arms of Putin's Russia. .
...and that is not difficult to understand since there's no (visible) ideology that people would oppose now. Putin's Russia is not communist anymore.
Although they all fear totalitarianism, in my opinion Russia doesn't "enjoy" such a bad image as before, when the wounds were still open.
  #609  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:17
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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You're right. Germany and France's exclusionary attitude towards the Visigrad states may nudge them towards the welcoming arms of Putin's Russia. If they can't relate to the heavy handed ways of Mama Merkel and Papa EU, they may find something more appealing there, while Uncle Sam is in rehab.

I am sooooo glad CH never joined this ship of fools.

Facts
> CH is a full member of COUNCIL OF EUROPE & CEPT and 20 other European organisations
> CH is linked to Germany by the comprehensive treaties of 1912 (Emperor Wilhelm II) which survived the NAZI rule
> CH is linked to France by a number of treaties, as it is with Italy (King Vittorio Emanuele II / Count Cavour)


in other words CH is ON BOARD, of course in an outer cabin with direct access to a rescue boat --- but if the steamer sinks we lose all our luggage
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  #610  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:18
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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What's wrong with Germany and their harsh leadership tendencies? Instead of working together with other EU states for mutual benefit to resolve underlying problems, they always want to run the show and impose on other countries their crap conditions. Treat everyone with respect as equal business partner or go stuff yourself in your own misery
Uhh you really think Poland hasn't benefitted from the EU and Germany in particular ??? I've got a couple of outsourced buddies who might disagree with you...

I'm afraid the truth is that most Germans and even most German politicians know that Mrs. Merckel's recent policies are an unmitigated disaster - the sooner she is gone the sooner we can get back to reasonable government.
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Old 17.09.2015, 14:24
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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You're right. Germany and France's exclusionary attitude towards the Visigrad states may nudge them towards the welcoming arms of Putin's Russia. If they can't relate to the heavy handed ways of Mama Merkel and Papa EU, they may find something more appealing there, while Uncle Sam is in rehab.

I am sooooo glad CH never joined this ship of fools.

It would be different had the UK not abstained from exerting influence on the continent. But noble Mr Cameron follows the lead of Nevillle Chamberlain and enjoys the splendid Isolation. ignoring the warnings of Winston Churchill of 1939 we shall not hide behind natural obstacles
  #612  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:31
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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...and that is not difficult to understand since there's no (visible) ideology that people would oppose now. Putin's Russia is not communist anymore.
Although they all fear totalitarianism, in my opinion Russia doesn't "enjoy" such a bad image as before, when the wounds were still open.
Honestly, I don't think they need to turn anywhere in particular. There are 4 visigrad countries that can constitute a formidable block. And then there are the baltic states which are in similar situations. In the game of power, there are pimps and prostitutes. I would think Russia would try to pimp out its allies in the same way or worse ways. I think the thing to do is to simply speak up, state your case and stand your ground. And that just happened.

The EU does have its redeeming qualities, to be fair. I believe it has managed to do away with a lot of lower level corruption, especially in the area of customs and trade. Except it has moved the corruption to a much higher level, one which can't be easily be questioned and reached.

The EU has some great potentials, but it is in serious need of reform. To be honest, EVERYBODY is calling for its reform. Now if it would only embark on some serious revision, it could very well be worth sticking to it. Countries just need to say No to it, and it needs to learn to respond to a No without getting punitive and vindictive.

It needs a statute allowing its members to say "No" without punitive damages. They need to defang and declaw those disconnected bureaucrats in Brussels.
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  #613  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:32
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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Simple! They get registered in the first country they arrive in and then sent to an EU country of the EU's choosing. Here they get housing and benefits (education for kids) ... if they run off to Germany, they no longer have their housing and benefits.



And if these sneaky refugees arrive in Germany & say "No, I am not registered anywhere, please hand over the housing and benefits?"
  #614  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:35
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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And if these sneaky refugees say "No, I am not registered anywhere, please hand over the housing and benefits?"

and the housing NOT bombed by an official or non-official army at midnight
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Old 17.09.2015, 14:35
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

Syria’s refugees are a golden opportunity for Europe
  #616  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:44
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

I believe that is a possibility, but nowhere near an inevitability. One disappointing statistics I read, albeit source and credibility not substantiated, is that Syrian migrant populations suffer the worse employment rates of all migrant ethnicities. I'm not sure it is worth posting here, but it is a possibility that needs to be considered. I do believe it does not necessarily have to be the case this time around.

One of the things that is missing in the conversation, perhaps because Merkel doesn't think public opinion is as important enough yet, is how will this wave of immigrants integrate. I think speaking about a comprehensive integration plan would help sell this. At the moment, I have only heard her respond with two points:

-"We would learn our lesson from the Turkish Guest Worker integration difficulties this time around". Although doesn't elaborate what "we learned".

-When asked how she would protect her people (The Germans) from immigrant criminality, her responses was something to the effect of "If something happens to them, its their own damn fault".

(too lazy to repost links and material)
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Old 17.09.2015, 14:52
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

Google is matching 1:1 first 5mln of donations:
https://onetoday.google.com/page/refugeerelief
I've submitted about CHF250 there.
  #618  
Old 17.09.2015, 14:53
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

and THIS is how Germany will look like once the Person gets off


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Old 17.09.2015, 14:59
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I believe that is a possibility, but nowhere near an inevitability. One disappointing statistics I read, albeit source and credibility not substantiated, is that Syrian migrant populations suffer the worse employment rates of all migrant ethnicities. I'm not sure it is worth posting here, but it is a possibility that needs to be considered. I do believe it does not necessarily have to be the case this time around.

One of the things that is missing in the conversation, perhaps because Merkel doesn't think public opinion is as important enough yet, is how will this wave of immigrants integrate. I think speaking about a comprehensive integration plan would help sell this. At the moment, I have only heard her respond with two points:

-"We would learn our lesson from the Turkish Guest Worker integration difficulties this time around". Although doesn't elaborate what "we learned".

-When asked how she would protect her people (The Germans) from immigrant criminality, her responses was something to the effect of "If something happens to them, its their own damn fault".

(too lazy to repost links and material)
Would be very interested to see those links - particularly to employment stats - would naturally enrage all the Kumbayah singing fools we see here and elsewhere.
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  #620  
Old 17.09.2015, 15:00
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I believe that is a possibility, but nowhere near an inevitability. One disappointing statistics I read, albeit source and credibility not substantiated, is that Syrian migrant populations suffer the worse employment rates of all migrant ethnicities. I'm not sure it is worth posting here, but it is a possibility that needs to be considered. I do believe it does not necessarily have to be the case this time around.

One of the things that is missing in the conversation, perhaps because Merkel doesn't think public opinion is as important enough yet, is how will this wave of immigrants integrate. I think speaking about a comprehensive integration plan would help sell this. At the moment, I have only heard her respond with two points:

-"We would learn our lesson from the Turkish Guest Worker integration difficulties this time around". Although doesn't elaborate what "we learned".

-When asked how she would protect her people (The Germans) from immigrant criminality, her responses was something to the effect of "If something happens to them, its their own damn fault".

(too lazy to repost links and material)

They are still entroute. And you get round with ""statistics"" !! To have it with Winston Churchill again I only believe in the statistics I faked myself
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