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Old 12.11.2015, 13:11
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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Easy.
The Germans don't quite eat Bratwurst, Eisbein an Sauerkraut and all that crap any more,
but infact Döner Kebab, Pizza and all that stuff, who cares if halal or not.
Next you'll be saying they don't speak German anymore, either..

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And for another things refugees do integrate quite well: Also if they don't receive much, they are thankful.


oooh, they'll make a great slave class

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And Syrians have another plus: They come from the Mediterranean area, which is mentally not so far away from Continental Roman law culture. As a matter of fact, for centuries it used to be the same culture.
seems they'll blend quite well with modern 'continental thinking':

"The Sunni Arabs, the meat of the resistance, have been embittered about their relegation to second fiddle in civil society since the early 20th century. Though they had deprived Alawites of the most basic civil rights before World War I, the Alawites would turn the tables beginning in the 1920s through their complicity with the French counterinsurgency in the region. Having gained control of the military, the Alawites slowly took over the Syrian government in the 1950s before consolidating power through Hafez al-Assad’s installation as dictator in 1970. For the next 42 years, the Sunnis became inured to the rule of an ethno-religious group they had once suppressed. Hafez al-Assad and his successor, Bashar al-Assad would come to be symbols of Sunni discontent. But the hatred of these leaders touches merely the surface of historical foment; the substance of the Sunni gripe lies not with the political abuses of Assad – who was, in days of peace, relatively enlightened as Middle Eastern despots go – but with the Alawite sect in general.

Indeed, the sectarian atrocities committed by Sunni rebels make painfully clear that the war is primarily one of ethno-religious grievance. In Sunni cities like Homs, Alawites must disguise their accents for their own survival, and in certain regions, such as rural Hama, Alawites who travel outside of their village confines are routinely murdered. In one chilling Reuters account, 39 Alawites from the village Rabia were slaughtered, one of whom was dismembered and delivered in a paper bag to his family.

The atrocities committed against the Sunnis, mostly by the legendarily gruesome pro-regime shabbiha, are equally repugnant. These are the massacres with which we are most familiar, smattering the front pages of most major Western, Saudi, and Egyptian newspapers. In one such incident, 108 Sunnis, including 34 women and 49 children, were summarily executed in two “line-ups.”

Before rushing to judgment, one must note that the actions of the pro-regime forces, however offensive, are typically driven by fear rather than by bloodlust. These pro-government factions are collections of Alawites, Christians, and other minority groups, who believe correctly that a Sunni takeover would lead to massacre, exile, and abuse for their respective peoples. As longtime Western liaison to the Assad regime, Trinity University Professor David Lesch explained to the HPR, “the shabbiha is motivated by survival, by the belief that if the Sunnis come to power, they’d be wiped out. Unfortunately, this fear is not unfounded… this is a cycle that’s been repeated throughout Middle Eastern history.”

After half a century of Alawite domination, the Sunni majority is also driven by fear of marginalization and abuse. Thus, what political scientists call an “ethnic security dilemma” has now taken hold of Syrian society, as multiple groups attempt to destroy one another in a self-defeating, but self-perpetuating effort to ensure their own security."

source: http://www.iop.harvard.edu/gangs-syria

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Meanwhile Anglo-Saxon mentality is far away. This is why they struggle once outside their homecountries.
Struggle to find some good cheddar cheese, maybe.
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Old 12.11.2015, 13:14
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

So the first outcome of the Malta summit is for the EU to pledge 1.8 billion euro in aid to Africa to help "improve living conditions in African countries". That'll help. What utter utter mongs. When are these leaders going to realise that aid achieves nothing. This money will just get spent on Armani clothing and Learjets. Which isn't going to stop Goodluck Nwamba chancing his luck on the next boat out of Tripoli.
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  #1563  
Old 12.11.2015, 13:15
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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and till today not a few Germans see them at least a bit as traitors or even criminals. There is no real link between them and Americans of German ancestry,
I'll have to ask my distant cousins in Baden-Baden how they feel about your statement.

p.s. It's the forty-eighters. You should brush up on our shared history.
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  #1564  
Old 12.11.2015, 13:22
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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When are these leaders going to realise that aid achieves nothing.
Achieve? I've lowered my expectations of these characters; EU, Germany and all. I no longer think they are truly interested in achieving anything. They just want to get to the next scene of their performances, hoping they will still be around for the next act. As for problems, why if they were to be solved, they would lose the justification for their existence.

The EU, bah! Who's stupid idea was it to try to emulate the United States? They ought to be careful what they wish for.
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Old 12.11.2015, 13:25
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I'll have to ask my distant cousins in Baden-Baden how they feel about your statement.

p.s. It's the forty-eighters. You should brush up on our shared history.

I get the sense you folks are interacting with a lobotomy patient there. Careful with feeding it. It may be contagious.
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  #1566  
Old 12.11.2015, 13:36
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?



He's quite a talented lil' troll, ain't he?
  #1567  
Old 12.11.2015, 13:36
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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So the first outcome of the Malta summit is for the EU to pledge 1.8 billion euro in aid to Africa to help "improve living conditions in African countries". That'll help. What utter utter mongs. When are these leaders going to realise that aid achieves nothing. This money will just get spent on Armani clothing and Learjets. Which isn't going to stop Goodluck Nwamba chancing his luck on the next boat out of Tripoli.
You forgot the huge watches too. Those UN children love those things. Must impress their prostitute girl friends.

When you give money to Africa most goes to the warlords and a little goes to the animals who fight their way to the front of the food que.

Read books folks before you make grand statements on where the aid goes. Richard Dowden is a good start. He was in Africa for over 30 years.

Looking at the Berlin Conference in 1884-1885 will provide a good base. And lets not forget King Leopold 2nd. Real butcher. Never travelled to Africa either. Too close to the blood... 10,000,000 dead Congo citizens produce a lot of blood.

So yes. Not a very nice history.
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  #1568  
Old 12.11.2015, 13:58
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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He's quite a talented lil' troll, ain't he?
Bucentaure, would you come back tomorrow, Friday?
  #1569  
Old 12.11.2015, 14:02
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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Of course,
but the question is not blood (those times are over, thank God) but culture.


Many of those people emigrated before the installation of Germany as a state,
plus it was mainly the uneducated, from poor rural areas (not all of them, of course, e.g. the forty-niners or political refugees - yes refugees - in the 1930ies),


and till today not a few Germans see them at least a bit as traitors or even criminals. There is no real link between them and Americans of German ancestry, unlike the Italo-American awareness, e.g.


P.S. I think those Germans' heirs are more than 20%, you have them all over the place. More you go the sticks, more you find.
But - again - they are quite the opposite of the Roman culture defined modern German.
They are Kind of the old Germanic - i.e. Angles and Saxons - lower social parts of the old world, which don't exist any more for decades.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by them being an older type of Germans.

In the Uk we don't really think of anglo-Americans as being especially close to us. The period of migration was a long time ago and few people still have family ties or anything. If we feel affinity for America it tends to be for all of America as a country and society with which we share many values. I don't think we on the whole have special affinity for any particular sub-group. But from my travels through America, I have the impression that the reverse may be more true, with lots of people being able to tell you with some pride where there ancestors came from and some being outright pro English in a more conceptual than political sense. I guess German Americans may show similar affection for Germany.

But to consider them traitors or criminals? I don't really see that.
  #1570  
Old 12.11.2015, 14:06
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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So the first outcome of the Malta summit is for the EU to pledge 1.8 billion euro in aid to Africa to help "improve living conditions in African countries". That'll help. What utter utter mongs. When are these leaders going to realise that aid achieves nothing. This money will just get spent on Armani clothing and Learjets. Which isn't going to stop Goodluck Nwamba chancing his luck on the next boat out of Tripoli.
Furthermore, paying people to stay away is not a good precedent.

In England we had a famous king called Ethelred the Unready who payed the Vikings a lot of money not to attack. They accepted the money but attacked him anyway. He is remembered more a bit of a joke than as a wise king. Today's leaders take heed.
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Old 12.11.2015, 14:11
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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He's quite a talented lil' troll, ain't he?
More like a court-jester, he brings some much needed comedy to this thread
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  #1572  
Old 12.11.2015, 14:19
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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But to consider them traitors or criminals? I don't really see that.
The way it works is if they are Germans one can agree with, then fine. If not, then "they are not my German people". I think that is what is meant by "Continental Thinking".

German is the largest ethnicity in the US. There are about 50 million, many came in the last quarter of the last century, way after WWII. But I think they would be ashamed to identify with Bucentaure's "Continental thinking".
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  #1573  
Old 12.11.2015, 14:23
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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The way it works is if they are Germans one can agree with, then fine. If not, then "they are not my German people". I think that is what is meant by "Continental Thinking".

German is the largest ethnicity in the US. There are about 50 million, many came in the last quarter of the last century, way after WWII. But I think they would be ashamed to identify with Bucentaure's "Continental thinking".
So maybe the 2.0 of the "no true Scotsman" argument is the "no true German" argument?
  #1574  
Old 12.11.2015, 14:45
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by them being an older type of Germans.

In the Uk we don't really think of anglo-Americans as being especially close to us. The period of migration was a long time ago and few people still have family ties or anything. If we feel affinity for America it tends to be for all of America as a country and society with which we share many values. I don't think we on the whole have special affinity for any particular sub-group. But from my travels through America, I have the impression that the reverse may be more true, with lots of people being able to tell you with some pride where there ancestors came from and some being outright pro English in a more conceptual than political sense. I guess German Americans may show similar affection for Germany.

But to consider them traitors or criminals? I don't really see that.
Most Europeans think it's absurd that 'mericans would identify with where their ancestors are from, and in a sense I agree - but the cultures and traditions taken to the states did not die out over night and in some cases never have. Indeed, they are still arriving to this day. The ethnic communities were and still are strong, so of course that would be part of our self-identity. (It's not as if our ancestors got off the boat and started eating Mcdonalds and shopping at Costco). It's not an association with a country so much(or at all), but with an individual's family history and culture.

As a young kid I wore heirloom lederhosen at formal family gatherings, if that says anything. They are still in the family. Glad I don't live in Germany, though

If the Germans think that over a million Syrian immigrants are going to quickly integrate into society and leave all of their Syrian baggage behind them, it might just blow up in their faces. Quite literally, even, as terrorists are free to enter at will these days.

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Old 12.11.2015, 14:45
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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So maybe the 2.0 of the "no true Scotsman" argument is the "no true German" argument?
Bucentaure is a nihilist, and so that just about fits. Two world wars have really done a number on "Continental Thinking". I think it has eviscerated both mind and spine, mainly through bombardment of guilt. Its like they have enshrined defeat and self-immolation as a virtue ever since. So I don't think one can have a solid conversation about real things. Might as well start discussing unicorns.

He/she may have been referring to the First Reich - the Holy Roman Empire. Which I recall Voltaire saying was "neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire". So perhaps this Continental nihilism dates way before the 20th century. I suspect misapplications of Sophism.
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  #1576  
Old 12.11.2015, 15:02
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by them being an older type of Germans.
...
I mean - and Phos is very wrong in this Point - that as most of them joined the US before 1900, and not a few even prior to the Civil War,

only a few of the former immigrants to the US (i.e. the German Americans' ancestors) had been seeing any positive outcome of a Welfare state, of written constitutions, codices, law traditions and a contrat social back in the old world.
But rather poverty, anachronistic traditions, missing political stability, maybe even persecution and hatred by higher social classes.

So sure those emigrants, especially after WWI, had no reason for any positive feeling with regards to Germany,
and the Germans on the other hands no link to the emigrants.

Germany today is very little what it used to be prior to 1871 (much unlike the US or GB),
with the exception from 1800-1814, and most of the German Americans have no clue at all about Germany.
(Btw. typical for them is that they don't respect the German Orthographic Conference of 1901, like Pilatus did when he wrote "Schwartzwald", which is the Standard English version, but not the German one after 1901). Things were divided before. The cultural model of all Continental Europe is looking West, but not over the Channel. The model is still France (also if the language is not that much dominant any more), not GB, not the US.
And the Prior-to-Napoleonic era German tradition is not the same Thing as that Anglo-Saxon one, but is more things in common with the latter than anything in modern Germany.


P.S. I never said Americans would be criminals by definition.
Just that in German families it was rather a sign of shame to have members who emigrated to the new world.
  #1577  
Old 12.11.2015, 15:04
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

Back to the subject of this thread..
Syrian refugees will continue to come. There is no hope for them that they can go back to Syria (or whatever will be left out of it) any time soon. The Russian intervention will (most probably) achieve even more instability...
In the end, I don't know how but most probably EU as well as other countries will have to manage somehow. I don't agree with free borders and other utopian stuff, but we (I mean all countries not only European ones) will have to do something for these people. I also believe it is not possible to help all of them, no matter how much we might want.
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Old 12.11.2015, 15:09
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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He/she may have been referring to the First Reich - the Holy Roman Empire. Which I recall Voltaire saying was "neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire". So perhaps this Continental nihilism dates way before the 20th century. I suspect misapplications of Sophism.
In my view, the fact that Voltaire said that merely shows there were always critical voices. So its sad to compare this with Faltrad's earlier posts saying that its perfectly Ok for the state to suppress free speech if it questions government policy. He would probbaly have been happy to lock up Voltaire too.

But Voltaire's actual statment (when taken out of context) was little more than a bon mot. Voltaire loved hyperbole and didn't mind biting the hand that fed him, which is why he didn't always have it easy in life. However, it's too much of a leap to derive from that that continental thinking has laways been nihilist.
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Old 12.11.2015, 15:24
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

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I mean - and Phos is very wrong in this Point - that as most of them joined the US before 1900, and not a few even prior to the Civil War,
The Germans who went to America pre Civil War and pre indendence even, were mostly Germans who were persecuted religiously. Amish, Mennonites, Anabaptists and such. So maybe they never saw Bismark but they did see persecution and bring with them clear views on freedom of conscience. Their experience thus had a real impact and was channeled into the First Amendment. And much of what is different between American and the Continental thinking traces back to the First Amendment, and specifically that just because you're wrong is no reason to stop your speech. So you could say the seminal grain of this happened in Germany,making it all the sadder that in this one point Germany hasn't moved ahead very much.

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only a few of the former immigrants to the US (i.e. the German Americans' ancestors) had been seeing any positive outcome of a Welfare state, of written constitutions, codices, law traditions and a contrat social back in the old world.
But rather poverty, anachronistic traditions, missing political stability, maybe even persecution and hatred by higher social classes.
The concept of written constitutional rights are as far as I am aware an American achievement and something that countries in the old world tried to copy. So even the guys who never crossed the Atlantic might recognise the American influence on their own improved well being.

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So sure those emigrants, especially after WWI, had no reason for any positive feeling with regards to Germany,
and the Germans on the other hands no link to the emigrants.
I actually think these emigrants do have positive feelings towards German culture and traditions. Maybe those feelings are not reciprocated but that is partly also due to general disnterest.

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(Btw. typical for them is that they don't respect the German Orthographic Conference of 1901, like Pilatus did when he wrote "Schwartzwald", which is the Standard English version, but not the German one after 1901).
When writing in English one uses English spellings.

The Germans also write Schottland do they not? I 've even seen an Atlas that had US states labelled as Georgien, Südkarolinien and Neumexiko.

So why can't English speakers have their spellings of German places?

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Things were divided before. The cultural model of all Continental Europe is looking West, but not over the Channel. The model is still France (also if the language is not that much dominant any more), not GB, not the US.
And the Prior-to-Napoleonic era German tradition is not the same Thing as that Anglo-Saxon one, but is more things in common with the latter than anything in modern Germany.
But it's not the pre revolutiuonary monarchistic France of "let them eat cake" they crave for. it's the France of the revolution which was actually inspired by achievements across the Atlantic.

My bottom line is that American cutlure is closely entangled with and ultimately made of the same stuff as European culture, and American history, at least the last few centuries, is very much part of European history. Trying to create an artificial cultural barrier is disingenous.

Last edited by amogles; 12.11.2015 at 15:38.
  #1580  
Old 12.11.2015, 15:45
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Re: How should the EU handle the Migrant Crisis from now?

Phos claimed that most Germans came to the US after WWII, which is rubbish.


The American Constitution had a strong impact on Weimar, which was not really a full success.


The question of orthography was not linked to exonyms, but to the cultural scission between German Americans and Germans of the old world, which is reflected also by the fact that the Americans kept the oldfashioned German version, which the Germans themselves abandoned.


American culture is not Continental European, of course exceptions made for a couple of things (among them some of the Jefferson stuff and of course Louisiana and Quebec - yes I know the latter is in Canada).
The US is not a model of integration, despite terminology of showbiz and IT.
There was something new and attractive in the 20ies, 50ies and 60ies (easy i.e. American way of life, ...) but this is history, again.
Probably because it's not really successful any more.
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