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  #81  
Old 23.09.2015, 18:23
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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I'd love to contribute to this thread but I ditched Religious Education for Home Economics.

If you have a philosophical discussion about the right way to iron a shirt and how to make Yorkshire pudding batter that raises really well, I'm in
Hang the shirt while wet and you hardly need to iron (I haven't ironed a thing in years )
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  #82  
Old 23.09.2015, 18:59
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

I guess Caramalized is just confused?

Like if I was living in a Moslem country, and wanted to know if they celebrate Easter/Christmas?

But then again, I guess I`d sort of guess that they don`t, (because being a grown-up somehow I`ve absorbed the knowledge that in culturally different countries with their own religions, one would be looking for trouble if one went onto one of their open forums and asked really ignorant sounding questions).

Christmas he treats as a holiday,( minus the decorated fir tree), simply because in Christian countries (and some that arent C`s) that day is closed to business. Just like Fridays in Muslim lands.

Maybe he should be informed that it is not obligatory to decorate a fir tree for Christmas? The tree thing is an old Celtic belief where they placated the god of trees in winter in hope that Springtime would re-appear again. It`s just nice to have/see, and somewhere for people to put their presents under.

Here in Switzerland we carve turnips and put a candle inside, for the children to carry in a procession at the beginning of winter - "to welcome Winter".

Lots of new things to learn to do in Switzerland - all traditional old pagan rituals still carried on. Probably similar to worshiping a burning bush/carving knife/willingness to murder one`s child/whatever - preserved from 1,000`s of years ago?

Better perhaps for him/her to have asked "What religious festivities are celebrated by Christians/or whatever, in Europe? Or asked if we have a similar celebration at the same time coinciding with his Isaac one?
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  #83  
Old 23.09.2015, 20:08
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

@OP: sacrifice of Isaac or Ishmael?

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I guess Caramalized is just confused?
....
that day is closed to business. Just like Fridays in Muslim lands.
The 70's disco movie; "Thank God Its Friday", is it haram or halal?
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  #84  
Old 23.09.2015, 21:33
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

I've often wondered about Isaac's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How did he cope, I wonder? Looking at it from Isaac's perspective.... he'd spent his first few years with two parents who had so longed and longed and longed for his arrival, that therefore, I suppose, they must have been delighted with him. Then, one day without warning, Dad is tying him up in rope and preparing to offer him as a sacrifice, to be burnt to death.

In addition, Isaac had probably heard, at least as a rumour, that he, Isaac, was not the first-born because Dad already had an elder son. Someone must have told Isaac that it was said to have been Mum's idea, in the first place, that Dad have sex with Hagaar, but that then when Hagaar gave birth to Ishmael, Mum wasn't happy at all.
Where was Isaac's big brother now? The servants say that Dad had followed Mum's wishes and sent Isaac's elder half-brother and his mother away, into the dangerous desert. Ummm, could Mum really have been that mean? Could Dad really have agreed to do what she'd said? Did Dad not love Ishmael at all? And Hagaar? And Isaac himself? Did Mum not care that he'd be deprived of getting to know his brother?

Isaac's parents must have seemed to him to be really confusing, sending mixed-messages and double-binds, first besotted with Isaac, then all those dark secrets, and then Dad very oddly, with pre-meditation, choosing to bring Isaac into direct mortal peril. And then changing his mind, just as unexpectedly. And then making Isaac stay and watch while Dad killed and burnt an animal instead, Isaac thinking all the while, as the flames licked about the carcass: "There but for Dad's changing his mind, go I."

I have wondered what kind of youth Isaac must have had, emotionally, and given all he was put through, in the name of Dad's confidence that he was always doing the right thing, what kind of fathering Isaac could offer Jacob.
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  #85  
Old 23.09.2015, 22:15
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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I have wondered what kind of youth Isaac must have had, emotionally, and given all he was put through, in the name of Dad's confidence that he was always doing the right thing, what kind of fathering Isaac could offer Jacob.
He laughed. Abraham laughed when he was told Sarah would have a baby. Sarah laughed when she had Isaac. Isaac's name means "to laugh". God has a sense of humour.
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  #86  
Old 23.09.2015, 22:44
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

But you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you.
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I've often wondered about Isaac's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How did he cope, I wonder? Looking at it from Isaac's perspective.... he'd spent his first few years with two parents who had so longed and longed and longed for his arrival, that therefore, I suppose, they must have been delighted with him. Then, one day without warning, Dad is tying him up in rope and preparing to offer him as a sacrifice, to be burnt to death.

In addition, Isaac had probably heard, at least as a rumour, that he, Isaac, was not the first-born because Dad already had an elder son. Someone must have told Isaac that it was said to have been Mum's idea, in the first place, that Dad have sex with Hagaar, but that then when Hagaar gave birth to Ishmael, Mum wasn't happy at all.
Where was Isaac's big brother now? The servants say that Dad had followed Mum's wishes and sent Isaac's elder half-brother and his mother away, into the dangerous desert. Ummm, could Mum really have been that mean? Could Dad really have agreed to do what she'd said? Did Dad not love Ishmael at all? And Hagaar? And Isaac himself? Did Mum not care that he'd be deprived of getting to know his brother?

Isaac's parents must have seemed to him to be really confusing, sending mixed-messages and double-binds, first besotted with Isaac, then all those dark secrets, and then Dad very oddly, with pre-meditation, choosing to bring Isaac into direct mortal peril. And then changing his mind, just as unexpectedly. And then making Isaac stay and watch while Dad killed and burnt an animal instead, Isaac thinking all the while, as the flames licked about the carcass: "There but for Dad's changing his mind, go I."

I have wondered what kind of youth Isaac must have had, emotionally, and given all he was put through, in the name of Dad's confidence that he was always doing the right thing, what kind of fathering Isaac could offer Jacob.
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  #87  
Old 23.09.2015, 22:55
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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thankyou Longbyte for staying on the topic.

Isaac being born to Abraham after a lot of prayers and long time, Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. he was his most beloved son and this was a test that only a father who waited so long for birth of his first child can understand.

we are celebrating Abraham was successful in his test and we celebrate the feast of sacrifice.
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Because people lived that long back then ....
I believe that counting was not so scientific then; anybody who survived more than 20 years fell into the hundred year class.

Strange thing to celebrate; when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac why didn't Abraham tell this voice in his head to go and screw itself??

These days anybody who follows instructions from voices in their heads gets locked up in a mental hospital; best solution
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  #88  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:02
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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I think it's probably because Abraham is supposed to be founding father of the Jewish people through his son Isaac and is revered as such, and he is also father to the Arab people (who are usually Muslim), through his other son (I think his name was Ishmael), whom he conceived with his wife's servant (handmaid). So both Arab and Jewish people therefore have the same founding father, although with different mothers! Semitic races.


People in the west can't claim Abraham as a founding father.
So why is Christianity defined as an Abrahamic religion?
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  #89  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:07
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Abraham is the founding father of the jewish people and in the end out of this line Christ was born.
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  #90  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:08
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Christians celebrate an event of which the offering of Isaac was a type or a foreshadowing.

God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, after God had told Abraham that he would be father of many through Isaac. It seems likely then that Abraham knew that God could raise Isaac from the dead. As it played out, God prevented the sacrifice, providing His own (a ram stuck in the thicket). A few thousand years later, God again provided his own sacrifice, giving up His only begotten Son, Jesus, as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. Three days later, Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

This event is far greater than the Abrahamic event, far more meaningful to Christians, and thus is what is celebrated globally by Christians at Easter*. Easter is also very much linked to the Jewish celebration of Passover.

Of course this is a mainstream Christian theology and Muslims and Jews do not agree with it. (Nor do atheists, some Christian groups and members of yet other religions). But I hope it answers your question of why it isn't celebrated much outside of the Muslim world.

* The term Easter, the chocolate eggs and the bunnies are holdovers from pagan springtime/fertility celebrations.
About "and thus is what is celebrated globally by Christians at Easter" except they do not perform the celebration realistically. Eating some chocolate eggs is a long way different from being assaulted by carpenters.
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  #91  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:09
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Abraham is the founding father of the jewish people and in the end out of this line Christ was born.
And also Mohammed
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  #92  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:12
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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About "and thus is what is celebrated globally by Christians at Easter" except they do not perform the celebration realistically. Eating some chocolate eggs is a long way different from being assaulted by carpenters.
Chocolate eggs are by no means a global phenomenon. There are many ways in which Christians commemorate and celebrate the crucifixion and resurrection, some of which are painfully realistic.
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Old 23.09.2015, 23:12
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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And also Mohammed
Just telling you "my" side of the story
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  #94  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:23
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Chocolate eggs are by no means a global phenomenon. There are many ways in which Christians commemorate and celebrate the crucifixion and resurrection, some of which are painfully realistic.
Myself I prefer the Chocolate eggs approach and the rabbit connotations; I always found the concept of "would you like to search for my eggs" was a popular Easter idea for Swiss ladies.
I believe the OP directed his question at "the West" where "painfully realistic" celebrations are relatively rare but if anybody wants to start such then I am offering to bring my own hammer
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Old 23.09.2015, 23:35
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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About "and thus is what is celebrated globally by Christians at Easter" except they do not perform the celebration realistically. Eating some chocolate eggs is a long way different from being assaulted by carpenters.
I thought it was it was the carpenter who got assaulted.
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  #96  
Old 23.09.2015, 23:39
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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I've often wondered about Isaac's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How did he cope, I wonder? Looking at it from Isaac's perspective.... he'd spent his first few years with two parents who had so longed and longed and longed for his arrival, that therefore, I suppose, they must have been delighted with him. Then, one day without warning, Dad is tying him up in rope and preparing to offer him as a sacrifice, to be burnt to death.

In addition, Isaac had probably heard, at least as a rumour, that he, Isaac, was not the first-born because Dad already had an elder son. Someone must have told Isaac that it was said to have been Mum's idea, in the first place, that Dad have sex with Hagaar, but that then when Hagaar gave birth to Ishmael, Mum wasn't happy at all.
Where was Isaac's big brother now? The servants say that Dad had followed Mum's wishes and sent Isaac's elder half-brother and his mother away, into the dangerous desert. Ummm, could Mum really have been that mean? Could Dad really have agreed to do what she'd said? Did Dad not love Ishmael at all? And Hagaar? And Isaac himself? Did Mum not care that he'd be deprived of getting to know his brother?

Isaac's parents must have seemed to him to be really confusing, sending mixed-messages and double-binds, first besotted with Isaac, then all those dark secrets, and then Dad very oddly, with pre-meditation, choosing to bring Isaac into direct mortal peril. And then changing his mind, just as unexpectedly. And then making Isaac stay and watch while Dad killed and burnt an animal instead, Isaac thinking all the while, as the flames licked about the carcass: "There but for Dad's changing his mind, go I."

I have wondered what kind of youth Isaac must have had, emotionally, and given all he was put through, in the name of Dad's confidence that he was always doing the right thing, what kind of fathering Isaac could offer Jacob.
Exactly- that story is the one that really made me think when I was very young. Would my Dad do that, and listen to his Dad he can't see, who is sort of my Granddad. And I knew, there and then, that my dad, even as a staunch and sincere Catholic, would just not listen- and tell the voice to go away, that THAT was just too much to ask, and that he loved me too much. And anyhow, that no Father (sort of Grand-father- would EVER ask for THAT). Never looked back.

Can anyone parent even contemplate ever being asked to sacrifice his child and agree? Ever? And then think God has got...........
a sense of humour...

Last edited by Odile; 24.09.2015 at 00:01.
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Old 24.09.2015, 11:25
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Can anyone parent even contemplate ever being asked to sacrifice his child and agree? Ever? And then think God has got...........
a sense of humour...
Still Happens all the time in this day and age

Cultures from that region have been know to sacrifice their children for even less value, such as some sense of family honor. Read up on honor killings.

Except unlike Abraham, they really do kill their children.
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  #98  
Old 24.09.2015, 11:32
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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I've often wondered about Isaac's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How did he cope, I wonder?
Some rabbis deduce that Isaac was a grown man at the time of the sacrifice. Therefore he willingly submitted himself not just to his dad but his God - a free adult choice. Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews", says specifically that Isaac was 25 years old. He would have had to be old enough to carry the wood for the altar, so pre-teen age is probably ruled out.

The Bible doesn't say how old he was.
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Old 24.09.2015, 11:44
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Or maybe they had an early form of Child Protection Services, grief counselors, therapy and even psycho active drugs to deal with the trauma. But I really think they just had a good laugh about it afterwards.
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Old 24.09.2015, 11:48
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Guys...

Serious question... Was it Isaac or Ismail that was supposed to get sacrificed? Is there a difference in the religious scriptures?

Edit: Found the answer... (https://www.christiancourier.com/art...n-or-the-bible)
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