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  #101  
Old 24.09.2015, 11:52
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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And also Mohammed
but the lineages of Jesus and Mohammed are completely different, aren't they? it's a rather critical distinction, at least historically speaking.
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  #102  
Old 24.09.2015, 12:03
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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but the lineages of Jesus and Mohammed are completely different, aren't they? it's a rather critical distinction, at least historically speaking.
The lineage diverts at Isaac and Ishmael. The child to be sacrificed was also the child of the promise to Abraham, so contentions arose as to whether it was Isaac or Ishmael.
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  #103  
Old 24.09.2015, 13:21
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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The lineage diverts at Isaac and Ishmael. The child to be sacrificed was also the child of the promise to Abraham, so contentions arose as to whether it was Isaac or Ishmael.
but that's the point, isn't it? having been raised a Protestant (and a very liberal one at that), Abraham was completely irrelevant both in terms of study as well as worship. it was Jesus' lineage to David that was important, and even then much more for historical (Jesus' historical status as the King of Israel) as opposed to strictly theological reasons.
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  #104  
Old 24.09.2015, 13:26
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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but that's the point, isn't it? having been raised a Protestant (and a very liberal one at that), Abraham was completely irrelevant both in terms of study as well as worship. it was Jesus' lineage to David that was important, and even then much more for historical (Jesus' historical status as the King of Israel) as opposed to strictly theological reasons.
Depends on what you studied. The aborted sacrifice of Isaac is directly correlated to the sacrifice of Jesus. Also, keep in mind that this was before Mosaic law. The relationship of Abraham to God is the model of Christian relationship to God, by faith instead of rules and regulations.

But I suppose there are multitudes of practices and beliefl abelled Christian or Protestant, and various directions and depth of studies.
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  #105  
Old 24.09.2015, 19:56
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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thankyou Longbyte for staying on the topic.

Isaac being born to Abraham after a lot of prayers and long time, Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. he was his most beloved son and this was a test that only a father who waited so long for birth of his first child can understand.

we are celebrating Abraham was successful in his test and we celebrate the feast of sacrifice.

Wow I better wear a condom for a other 25 years
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  #106  
Old 24.09.2015, 20:05
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Would any modern Christian agree to give- eg sacrifice/kill their child nowadays? I hope the answer is a clear NO.
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  #107  
Old 24.09.2015, 20:07
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Definitely no. But from a Christian perspective this would no longer be necessary at all as Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
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  #108  
Old 24.09.2015, 20:11
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Ok
When it comes to Abraham: Well, there are simply way more important things to celebrate than that story...

New years eve ?
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  #109  
Old 24.09.2015, 20:15
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Abraham was a man faithful to God, he gave his son to God. God's promise and his descendants as numerous as the stars, like the sand of the sea. Please take a look at the story of Bible story 3:
http://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/concerning-the-bible-3/
Wow, that god of yours should have put some more effort into that promise, seems Genghis Khan has the most decedents, around one for every two hundred people alive today.
I dunno, if it was me I would change gods if I wanted "descendants as numerous as the stars"
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  #110  
Old 24.09.2015, 20:31
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

BH
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So basically God likes playing chicken, but isn't very good at it, or at least not as good as Abraham was.

Not sure how that works for an omniscient being. Maybe God knew that Abraham knew that God knew what Abraham was thinking, so did the opposite of what Abraham thought God would do.

...
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Unless they're too difficult, like why does supposedly omnipotent god allow war, starvation and other nasty things.

To which the standard reply is "it's a test to see if you get into heaven".

So then you ask "But god's omniscient as well, so what need for a test?".
...

This is the Rabbinic Scholar tradition, quite precisely. God doesn't need any test.


It's rather the tselem elohim (imago Dei) and the Brit thing.
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  #111  
Old 24.09.2015, 22:05
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Would any modern Christian agree to give- eg sacrifice/kill their child nowadays? I hope the answer is a clear NO.
This response could raise some ire: In some people's perspective, the practice of abortion is a sacrifice of one's child. Jiust not to God.
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  #112  
Old 24.09.2015, 22:15
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

True, but that would lead to a completely different discussion.

Where is the OP anyway?
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  #113  
Old 24.09.2015, 22:52
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Serious question: when Jesus (for it is He) died for our sins, what exactly was the small print that went along with His totally awesome sacrifice?

Did it absolve everyone born up until midnight before his birthday in the year 0, or was it a less specific kind of mantra that we could all do any kind of shit we ever wanted to for the rest of time and then play the "not guilty, the Jewish kid died on the cross for us" card?

Legally speaking, it would be unfair and setting a poor precedent if it just meant those living around His time, because they did some very naughty things back in those days before cable and free WiFi.
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  #114  
Old 25.09.2015, 01:23
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Some heavy duty testing happen here
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index...20150925257735
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  #115  
Old 25.09.2015, 07:57
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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ok, this was a sincere question for religious people and all wanna be clowns(trolls) can find another thread to be funny.

thanks
Errr no.. This is a public forum and people can reply as they wish. If you don't like the replies maybe swap it around and think people don't like your question but no one is dictating what you can and can't post. .. except you !

If you don't like that option I suggest you find a more appropriate religious forum.
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  #116  
Old 25.09.2015, 08:30
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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Serious question: when Jesus (for it is He) died for our sins, what exactly was the small print that went along with His totally awesome sacrifice?

Did it absolve everyone born up until midnight before his birthday in the year 0, or was it a less specific kind of mantra that we could all do any kind of shit we ever wanted to for the rest of time and then play the "not guilty, the Jewish kid died on the cross for us" card?

Legally speaking, it would be unfair and setting a poor precedent if it just meant those living around His time, because they did some very naughty things back in those days before cable and free WiFi.
There was no year 0. 1 BC was followed by 1 AD. The chap who calculated Jesus' birth got it wrong and I believe it's mostly reckoned to be about 4BC on our calendar. Also, rather than talking of Jesus' birth, you should be centring on this death - ~30 AD.

The crucifixion dealt with sin past and future to the actual time of crucifixion. Anyone who had put their faith in God got/gets the benefit of it. Paul said "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith" - this being counted as righteous was effected by means of the cross. Jesus died also for Abraham's sins.

However, the so-called penal substitution theory of the cross (that Jesus took the punishment we deserved for our sins) is only one theory/aspect/model - largely reformed/Calvinistic, from Anselm. The one held by the early church (Iraneus) was Christus Victor. In this, at the cross, Jesus defeated utterly the powers of Satan, Death and Sin, confirmed by the Resurrection, enabling all folk, past and future, to avail themselves of forgiveness from sin through faith. There are other models that have been discussed and adopted by various parts of the Christian church over the centuries.

My own view is that all these models are flawed, being interpretations/constructions of man, but some demonstrate aspects of the "small print". None describe the totality of what went on at the crucifixion.

Roman Catholic tradition seems to be completely different from the above.
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  #117  
Old 25.09.2015, 10:20
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

Glad this thread took a turn to show some respect and seriousness as I doubt the OP was trolling. After going through the first couple of pages and reading only sarcastic and demeaning posts, I couldn't help but think many of those replies sounded like those dastardly close-minded Swiss comments and actions we all love to complain about.

We are all spiritual to some extent. Some of us believe in God, others believe in the power of nutrition, some are into sports while others have esoteric beliefs that shape their lives.

May the insightful and interesting discussion of religious history and its on-going effects carry on.....
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  #118  
Old 25.09.2015, 11:35
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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However, the so-called penal substitution theory of the cross (that Jesus took the punishment we deserved for our sins) is only one theory/aspect/model - largely reformed/Calvinistic, from Anselm. The one held by the early church (Iraneus) was Christus Victor. In this, at the cross, Jesus defeated utterly the powers of Satan, Death and Sin, confirmed by the Resurrection, enabling all folk, past and future, to avail themselves of forgiveness from sin through faith. There are other models that have been discussed and adopted by various parts of the Christian church over the centuries.

My own view is that all these models are flawed, being interpretations/constructions of man, but some demonstrate aspects of the "small print". None describe the totality of what went on at the crucifixion.

Roman Catholic tradition seems to be completely different from the above.
You don't need to be a theologian or a philosopher to practice Christianity. In fact, it is designed for people with the meekness and humility to admit that they are not smart enough to figure it out for themselves. Kind of like the first step to an addiction, to admit you have a problem and need help.

I think Assassin is wondering if Christianity permits Christians to sin. The answer is No. Christianity is NOT a license to sin. It is a license to not sin.

The example that comes to mind is King David. He saw some married chick, Bathsheba, and wanted her badly. He got her pregnant, so he plotted to get her husband killed. He later comes to his senses and admits his sin. The book of Samuel said he was forgiven. Yet what happens to his family from here on goes totally twisted because of what he has done, many generations down the road.

So with sin, there are consequences for it on earth, in this lifetime you cannot escape. One develops an awareness of it and avoids it.
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  #119  
Old 25.09.2015, 11:51
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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We are all spiritual to some extent.
Nope.
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Some of us believe in God, others believe in the power of nutrition, some are into sports while others have esoteric beliefs that shape their lives.
While the large number of people who refute the existence of any sort of "spirit" cannot, by definition, be spiritual to any extent.
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  #120  
Old 25.09.2015, 11:55
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Re: Binding/Sacrifice of Isaac

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While the large number of people who refute the existence of any sort of "spirit" cannot, by definition, be spiritual to any extent.
Huh, even Laphraoig?
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