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  #21  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:47
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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Hmm. This isn't the same as the baker story, is it? My understanding (based on guessing, I've not actually cared enough to read the story) is that the baker refused to make a standard cake for a gay couple, not that the baker was asked to make a wedding cake representing two guys shagging or something.

So your analogy should be "could the tailor refuse to make a standard suit for someone who proclaimed to belong to the KKK".
In both cases he could. He could just invent some feeble excuse such as I've got the stomach flu or I haven't got the raw materials or I've got too much other work right now. In all probability the customer would walk away without any hard feelings. And there is probably no fathoming how often that excuse does get played. So sometimes piss poor excuses do help both sides save face. But the question is, should said excuses be ordained by law, or should people be given the opportunity to handle situations as they see fit, and if need be make fools of themselves in the process?
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  #22  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:53
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

I assume there are general anti-discrimination laws that businesses have to abide with, otherwise if a bakery is allowed to not serve gay people, then why would a bar have to let gay people in, or a letting agency rent apartments to gay people, or a doctor operate on a gay person etc. etc.
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  #23  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:54
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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If a man walks into your shop or phones you or sends you an email. Is what you or he says then "in public"?
Yes.

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If somebody walks into a tailor's shop and orders a KKK outfit, would you feel in the same way about it? Or would the tailor be in his rights to tell him to f@@k @ff and never come back?
Irrelevant. The tailor is not offering an opinion that is racist, sexist or homophobic.

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I would consider that a private business has (maybe within certain limitations) the right to refuse any work for whatever reason and shouldn't be forced to invent fake reasons in order not to have to mention the real one.
What would those certain limitations be? So long as it isn't because they're gay or dark-skinned or disabled?

You seem to be saying that it is far worse to force someone to come up with spurious reasons for not offering service, than it is for them to state execrable opinions (and still deny service)?
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  #24  
Old 26.10.2015, 17:10
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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I assume there are general anti-discrimination laws that businesses have to abide with, otherwise if a bakery is allowed to not serve gay people, then why would a bar have to let gay people in, or a letting agency rent apartments to gay people, or a doctor operate on a gay person etc. etc.
What if you turn this argument around?

Would you want to be served or treated by somebody who doesn't really want to help you? Would you trust them to give you the best possible service at all times? Wouldn't you prefer to take your custom somewhere where it is appreciated?

In the past we even boycotted such businesses. No we're saying we shouldn't even be able to boycott them because they shouldn't reveal what they stand for.

Last edited by amogles; 26.10.2015 at 17:21.
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Old 26.10.2015, 17:19
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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Would you want to be served or treated by somebody who doesn't really want to help you?
This should be in Daily Life
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  #26  
Old 26.10.2015, 17:19
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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Would you want to be served or treated by somebody who doesn't really want to help you? Would you trust them to give you the best possible service at all times? Wouldn't you prefer to take your custom somewhere where it is appreciated?
I would prefer to be served by someone who won't abuse me or my friends on the grounds of sexuality, race or gender. What they feel is up to them. If the service is consistently crap towards, e.g. the gay community, I'm sure they'll cotton on quite quickly and boycott such businesses. Word gets around.

Your arguments are ... odd.
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  #27  
Old 26.10.2015, 17:20
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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What would those certain limitations be? So long as it isn't because they're gay or dark-skinned or disabled?
One example might be if a person cannot get a wedding cake because all bakers in town are homophobic, or all bars are refusing admission to whatever group of people. Sure, some tough action would be required.

But if for whatever strange reason, a gay person wants the only openly homophobic baker in town and none other to make his wedding cake although there are many others who could do the same job just as well (rather than boycott him and call on all decent people to do the same), and wants the judge to go and make him do it, I don't really think that this "anti-boycott" is achieving much of value.
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  #28  
Old 26.10.2015, 17:28
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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But if for whatever strange reason, a black person wants the only openly racist baker in town and none other to make his wedding cake although there are many others (rather than boycott him and call on all decent people to do the same), and wants the judge to go and make him do it, I don't really think that this "anti-boycott" is achieving much of value.
See what I've done there?

I think it is right to call out such a person. The openly racist or homophobic baker should be prosecuted if he violates the law by refusing service on racist or homophobic grounds. All he had to do was bake it, and the agent provocateur, if that's what it was, has nothing further to do. The court should impose the appropriate penalty - probably a fine. I agree the court should not order the service be provided. But if the customer goes back and re-orders and is refused again then it will go to court. Rince and repeat until the baker is imprisoned and thereby they lose their business.
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  #29  
Old 26.10.2015, 17:32
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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But if for whatever strange reason, a gay person wants the only openly homophobic baker in town and none other to make his wedding cake although there are many others who could do the same job just as well (rather than boycott him and call on all decent people to do the same), and wants the judge to go and make him do it, I don't really think that this "anti-boycott" is achieving much of value.
I can see the argument that the couple were a pair of dicks and they could have just gone to the next baker without making a fuss. But why should they? They were treated in an illegally discriminatary way. Why should they just accept that abuse and move meekly on without calling it out? That would be reinforcing the original baker's position.

Besides. A man baking bloody cakes? A closet queer, if ever I saw one.

Last edited by mirfield; 26.10.2015 at 17:51. Reason: Correct English (well a bit of it)
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  #30  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:04
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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See what I've done there?

I think it is right to call out such a person. The openly racist or homophobic baker should be prosecuted if he violates the law by refusing service on racist or homophobic grounds. All he had to do was bake it, and the agent provocateur, if that's what it was, has nothing further to do. The court should impose the appropriate penalty - probably a fine. I agree the court should not order the service be provided. But if the customer goes back and re-orders and is refused again then it will go to court. Rince and repeat until the baker is imprisoned and thereby they lose their business.
Uh?

It seems to me that the prosecution was designed to make the baker comply with the requirement and serve the customer. So the rinse and repeat part would just make that baker even richer. Is that better than a good ole boycott?
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  #31  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:11
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

I understood "phobia" to be an irrational fear of something. When it comes to groups or subcultures, the use of the word is ironic. Its somewhat used in the wrong way.

For example, if I were to say , "Hippies are careless and irresponsible", it doesn't stem from my fear of hippies. Prejudice, sure, but how is that Hippyphobia?

Now if a hippy got angry at me for saying that, because it is a little close to the truth of what hippy-dom is, then isn't it his own fear of truths about hippies that qualify as Hippyphobia rather than my prejudice?

That's just an example.

So, what if it was actually good to advise hippies to take showers every once in a while, and comb their hair, are we no longer allowed to suggest anymore?

Hmm, I'm not sure this political correctness stuff is really useful for humanity. Sure it is good for maintaing some social peace, but there are certain things we may never get to talk about that we should.
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Last edited by Phos; 26.10.2015 at 18:33.
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  #32  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:15
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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I understood "phobia" to be an irrational fear of something.
Yeah, it's just a naming convention that caught on.

It doesn't really bear up to an etymological examination, and doesn't need to really. It's just used as a straw man. Like all those racists that protest "______ isn't a race."
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  #33  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:16
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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I assume there are general anti-discrimination laws that businesses have to abide with, otherwise if a bakery is allowed to not serve gay people, then why would a bar have to let gay people in, or a letting agency rent apartments to gay people, or a doctor operate on a gay person etc. etc.
Yes, there are and they have consequences. Back in 2013 a Cornish couple lost their case when they refused to allow a gay couple to stay in their B&B.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-25119158

And it's cost them their business.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-business.html

As far as I understand the law a business can't be relgious, racist, whatever because it doesn't have a "soul".

http://works.bepress.com/thomas_rutledge/1/

Owners can't put their beliefs forward as being part of company policy.
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  #34  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:19
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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Uh?

It seems to me that the prosecution was designed to make the baker comply with the requirement and serve the customer. So the rinse and repeat part would just make that baker even richer
No.

Scenario 1
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker for refusing service in a discriminatory way
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker a bigger fine for second offence.
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court finds baker guilty of a third count of the same offence and goes to jail forever under the idiotic third count and you're out law.
Scenario 2
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker for refusing service in a discriminatory way and orders baker to do the cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court finds baker in contempt and sends the baker to jail.
There, that wasn't too hard, was it?

The baker has a choice. Abide by the law, or suffer the consequences. This is the same choice the early Christians had, for example, when they were told they must perform obeisance to the emperor as their god.
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  #35  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:21
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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Yes, there are and they have consequences. Back in 2013 a Cornish couple lost their case when they refused to allow a gay couple to stay in their B&B.
They should do what they used to do in Blackpool and just state "No all male groups".


(Though these days, I think hen parties are probably more dangerous than stags).
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  #36  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:40
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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I can see the argument that the couple were a pair of dicks ...
I see what you did there.
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  #37  
Old 26.10.2015, 18:44
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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No.

Scenario 1
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker for refusing service in a discriminatory way
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker a bigger fine for second offence.
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court finds baker guilty of a third count of the same offence and goes to jail forever under the idiotic third count and you're out law.
Scenario 2
Customers asks baker to do them a cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court fines baker for refusing service in a discriminatory way and orders baker to do the cake.
Baker refuses as they are gay.
Customer goes to court.
Court finds baker in contempt and sends the baker to jail.
There, that wasn't too hard, was it?

The baker has a choice. Abide by the law, or suffer the consequences. This is the same choice the early Christians had, for example, when they were told they must perform obeisance to the emperor as their god.
You're omitting the third choice, which is, do as the customer wishes and get rich, which the baker will have to revert to at some point as he realizes he can't keep on paying fines. This is the point where the baker says with a big smile "of course I like gay customers, some of my best friends are gay", and some of the customers believe him and then one day, if something slips out, start wondering "why are people so dishonest" but fail to see where it all started.
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  #38  
Old 26.10.2015, 20:33
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Re: Free Speech and Phobias

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You're omitting the third choice, which is, do as the customer wishes and get rich which the baker will have to revert to at some point as he realizes he can't keep on paying fines. This is the point where the baker says with a big smile "of course I like gay customers, some of my best friends are gay", and some of the customers believe him and then one day, if something slips out, start wondering "why are people so dishonest" but fail to see where it all started.
This is so illogical, I'm beginning to feel I've entered wonderland.

1. Why do you think he'll be getting extra custom if he finally agrees to what the law says?
2. Why do you think any income he gets from the extra cakes will outweigh the fines?
3. Why is your fanciful outcome worse than having a law that lays down what is acceptable, and the consequences of violating that law?
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