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Old 15.11.2015, 16:25
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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So where are those "moderate Muslims" that we all like to talk about?
What is your implication? That all muslims that don't speak up against these attacks are extremists who agree with them?

You just need to Google 'Muslims condemn Paris attack' to get dozens of articles about it.
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  #282  
Old 15.11.2015, 16:48
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Just read through the whole thread! My two cents:

-Intelligence: it's quite concerning that so many terrorist attacks in Europe (Paris two days ago, Charlie Hebdo earlier on, Thalys attempt, Madrid bombings, 7/7) are carried out by individuals who were apparently already known to the authorities. Security forces definitely need to be more proactive.

-Foreign policy: A review of the EU foreign policy is long overdue. A lot of military interventions have simply been a case of follow the leader (who is at a comfortable distance from the action) and resulted in foolish policies such as arming anyone and everyone who opposes the villain of the day (currently Assad) without thinking about the motives of these groups.

-ISIS: As mentioned above, although the bulk of their funding allegedly comes from Qatar and Saudi Arabia, it was only a year or two ago EU governements where also funding and arming any group that called themselves 'Syrian rebels'.

-Radicalization: Most of these individuals (Kouachi brothers, Lee Rigby murderer, Madrid bombers, 7/7 bombers) had criminal backgrounds and were already sociopaths to begin with. Combine this with extremism and you get a deadly result. Educated, intelligent Muslims who are also knowledgeable about their religion are not as easy to manipulate as street thugs. There are exceptions but generally speaking this is the profile of the 'jihadist' in the West.

-Jihad: As mentioned earlier in this thread, although some people join groups like ISIS under the illusion that they are fighting a holy war, the actual 'military value' of these groups lies in the mercenaries they hire and their interest is monetary more than anything else. The Europeans who make their way over often end up doing the work that nobody else wants to (cleaning up, social networking etc..). Most of these kids wouldn't last two seconds in front of a trained Syrian soldier.

-Path forward: To pull out immediately from foreign military interventions would be a sign of weakness, but the EU needs to question if they really want to continue trying to play kingmaker in other regions in the future. The position two years ago was to remove Assad at any cost (who is apparently a bigger threat to us than King Salman of Saudi Arabia and who is apparently more brutal to his population than the Khalifa family of Bahrain). Whether the EU wants to continue down this path (Egypt? Iran? Who next?) and whether this is beneficial to the indigenous population of Europe is to be considered.
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  #283  
Old 15.11.2015, 16:53
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Aahhhh, just give me a break, who gives a rats ass what happens 5000 km from here in a place where most of us will never go, Paris is 500 km away and most of us go there on weekly/monthly basis for work and know people that work live there.

So of course I will be more concerned what is happening around me in the centre of the civilised world rather than the jungles in central africa

Man up FFS
Paris is a long long way away from Switzerland. I've been there precisely once. It smelt of dogshit.

Quite frankly, Paris is just as irrelevant to most normal people as Ouagadougou or La Paz.

But if you're into eating snails and wearing a beret, fill your boots.

Chapeau!
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  #284  
Old 15.11.2015, 17:00
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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So where are those "moderate Muslims" that we all like to talk about?
Interestingly enough I was just reading an article on Lematin.ch about a protest organized today by a group of Muslims in Vaud (around 200 people showed up): Link

Out of the 15 comments that have currently been made on the article (scroll below on link) only one is supportive. The other 14 include statements such as, 'I don't believe them', 'If you want to impress us, change religion', 'Strange, we didn't hear them after the Merah shootings', 'How many of them are potential terrorists' etc..

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What people don't realize is:

-ISIS doesn't care more for Muslim lives than it does for non-Muslim lives. They have killed several Muslims, some in the most brutal of manners.

-While some mosques have been identified as having extremist leanings (and are subsequently investigated), jihadist cells typically operate underground (not out of public mosques) and it is misleading to assume that the average Muslim knows more about who is/isn't an extremist than the intelligence agencies. In fact ISIS has relied largely on social networking (in the West) and internet forums, and this is how they recruited most of their European members (so to speak).
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  #285  
Old 15.11.2015, 17:06
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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paris is a long long way away from switzerland. I've been there precisely once. It smelt of dogshit.

Quite frankly, paris is just as irrelevant to most normal people as ouagadougou or la paz.

But if you're into eating snails and wearing a beret, fill your boots.

Chapeau!
lol.
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  #286  
Old 15.11.2015, 17:21
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

So there is a nascent state in Middle East, neither better not worse than any other there, supported by a NATO member state and some Arab allies of US, and is being attacked by France, among others. Why wonder it sends its best men to retaliate and support its cause? I'm quite sure the collateral sustained by the civilians there is so gruesome and cruel that it is hardly comparable with what happens in France. And France is directly guilty of horrendous atrocities in Algeria, and of importing of the Algerian war to France, and having it somehow frozen and pacified until today. Very, very difficult role of France in all this so no wonder it is regarded as an enemy and treated accordingly. France is not at war because it was just attacked. France started it and it is its meddling with Africa and ME that's at display here.
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  #287  
Old 15.11.2015, 17:22
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

There is no point to derail this thread any further in a fashion of my 'willy is bigger than yours'. I don't know about you but to me innocent life wasted in this world is another senselessly and sadly innocent life lost. Be it across Nairobi, Kinshasa, Paris, delta of river Okavango, Turkistan or elsewhere for that matter. Irrespective of their cultural habits and culinary habits, they can eat snakes, escargot or wild pigs ... They all deserve equal amount of media coverage and sympathy as other human beings who tragically lost their lives.

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...
- Path forward: To pull out immediately from foreign military interventions would be a sign of weakness, but the EU needs to question if they really want to continue trying to play kingmaker in other regions in the future. The position two years ago was to remove Assad at any cost (who is apparently a bigger threat to us than King Salman of Saudi Arabia and who is apparently more brutal to his population than the Khalifa family of Bahrain). Whether the EU wants to continue down this path (Egypt? Iran? Who next?) and whether this is beneficial to the indigenous population of Europe is to be considered.
The well thought over way forward to quell the conflict is required rather than instantaneous retaliation, yet without showing a sign of weakness. The attitude of people in Paris who wake up next day and live their normal life uninterrupted by terror, is a good thing and adorable sign of courage. As a nation you are strong and show that despite the tragic incidents, they will go about their daily business. We won't surrender to terror is the best message sent across which will weaken morally enemy's loathsome goal of scaring the nation.

Paris attacks: Social media response
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34825501

Current development in the ME region only adds more trees to already overgrown forest ...

G20 summit: Russia Syria action 'raising refugee numbers'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34827047
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  #288  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:18
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Paris is a long long way away from Switzerland. I've been there precisely once. It smelt of dogshit.

Quite frankly, Paris is just as irrelevant to most normal people as Ouagadougou or La Paz.

But if you're into eating snails and wearing a beret, fill your boots.

Chapeau!
FRance is VERY close to here- and Paris is a 3 hr train ride away- many people here have close connections with Paris and go regularly due to TGV connection. I know several people in Neuchâtel and Pontarlier who work several days a week in Paris.
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  #289  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:24
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

I have reported a really sick video put on FB yesterday, posted by a minor French 'celebrity/model' with a huge following- ranting about bringing back gas ovens, slitting the throat of all Muslim 'racaille' like dogs, and more.
and 3 times FB replied that it would not take it off air- clearly against their own rules about inciting hatred. You show a mother feeding a baby and it's taken off- but sheer incitment to violence and hatred towards a specific group- and that is fine Over 50.000 'likes' - 100s of violent and racist comments and nearly 25.000 shares- but FB won't take it out.

The large Huguenot Heritage group is also calling for war against Islam- and civil war, in the name of the Huguenot faith. I am sure there are plenty more.

All over France, Muslims have been insulted, shouted at, spat at and more yesterday- and are in fear of going out due to reprisals- for atrocities done in 'their name' (NOT) and the name of their religion (NOT) - giving racists the 'divine right' to their violence and attacks. Children will be in fear of going to school tomorrow.

Last edited by Odile; 15.11.2015 at 18:54.
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  #290  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:25
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Interestingly enough I was just reading an article on Lematin.ch about a protest organized today by a group of Muslims in Vaud (around 200 people showed up): Link

Out of the 15 comments that have currently been made on the article (scroll below on link) only one is supportive. The other 14 include statements such as, 'I don't believe them', 'If you want to impress us, change religion', 'Strange, we didn't hear them after the Merah shootings', 'How many of them are potential terrorists' etc..
(...)
sounds like an EF thread....
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  #291  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:32
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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What is your implication? That all muslims that don't speak up against these attacks are extremists who agree with them?

You just need to Google 'Muslims condemn Paris attack' to get dozens of articles about it.
Almost 15 years of hearing this absurd notion that Muslims should issue Pavlovian condemnations after every single terrorist atrocity... why??? Unless you're a homicidal maniac yourself, you have nothing in common with terrorists and they have nothing in common with you.
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  #292  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:41
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I have reported a really sick video put on FB yesterday, posted by a minor French 'celebrity/model' with a huge following- ranting about bringing back gas ovens, slitting the throat of all Muslim 'racaille' like dogs, and more.
and 3 times FB replied that it would not take it off air- clearly against their own rules about inciting hatred. You show a mother feeding a baby and it's taken off- but sheer incitment to violence and hatred towards a specific group- and that is fine
You should have reported it because of a visible nipple or something similar. Facebook seems to be much more strict about such items.
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  #293  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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FRance is VERY close to here- and Paris is a 3 hr train ride away- many people here have close connections with Paris and go regularly due to TGV connection. I know several people in Neuchâtel and Pontarlier who work several days a week in Paris.
Three hours away! That's not really round the corner, is it?

I remember when the IRA murdered a couple of young lads just ten miles from my house. We were upset, but we didn't freak out about it. There wasn't any Facebook in those days, so no opportunities for public demonstrations of vicarious grief. Life carried on as normal. They eventually put a plaque up at the railway station where it happened.

People really need to get a grip. Terrorism is nothing new on this continent. The way people are behaving this weekend, you'd think we'd all just had our virginity popped or something.

Naturally, if anybody actually knows somebody who was directly affected by the events of Friday night then it's a different story, but for everyone else:
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  #294  
Old 15.11.2015, 18:57
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

About the same as London to Newcastle no?

But yes, I agree and hate the 'Lady Di' type hysteria.

Terrible terrorist attacks, death and injuries in Lebanon yesterday- and it's hardly made the news- and nobody seems to care much. Some lives are definitely worth more than others.
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Old 15.11.2015, 18:58
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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About the same as London to Newcastle no?
Yup. Miles and miles and miles away.

How much of anything that happens more than, say, 30 miles away actually has any direct effect upon us (unless we actually know somebody who lives there)?
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Old 15.11.2015, 19:01
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Well, here most of us have friends and relatives who live in Paris- Christians, Muslims and non religious.
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Old 15.11.2015, 19:02
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Almost 15 years of hearing this absurd notion that Muslims should issue Pavlovian condemnations after every single terrorist atrocity... why??? Unless you're a homicidal maniac yourself, you have nothing in common with terrorists and they have nothing in common with you.
Well, the absense shows that "moderate" Muslims are starting to be aware that if they condemn the terror acts "in the name of Allah" they actually go against their own religion! So I imagine they are slowly and slowly caving in that "those non believers had it coming for dressing up in mini skirts and drinking beer at 11 o'clock at night"

There are over 100 verses in the Qoran that call on Muslims to fight and kill non-believers. Apparently if you don't join the fight you will be sent to hell!

I think slowly we are realizing that "moderate Muslim" is something very close to a "moderate Nazi"

Surely there were some Nazi's that didn't commit any crimes and didn't feel obliged to say anything about the atrocities happening to innocent people? Or we have forgotten about them?

So where exactly are the "moderate" Muslims standing here? Do they really believe that they will go to hell unless they fight the non-believers?
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  #298  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:05
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Yup. Miles and miles and miles away.

How much of anything that happens more than, say, 30 miles away actually has any direct effect upon us (unless we actually know somebody who lives there)?
I was at Paris CDG this morning on the morning flight to Geneve at 7:15. Seeing police frisking up China Eastern flight passengers even before getting to the passport control was not a nice sight. I felt like I was on the Turkish border.
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Old 15.11.2015, 19:05
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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(...)
I think slowly
(...)
fully agree.
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Old 15.11.2015, 19:13
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Well, the absense shows that "moderate" Muslims are starting to be aware that if they condemn the terror acts "in the name of Allah" they actually go against their own religion! So I imagine they are slowly and slowly caving in that "those non believers had it coming for dressing up in mini skirts and drinking beer at 11 o'clock at night"

There are over 100 verses in the Qoran that call on Muslims to fight and kill non-believers. Apparently if you don't join the fight you will be sent to hell!

I think slowly we are realizing that "moderate Muslim" is something very close to a "moderate Nazi"

Surely there were some Nazi's that didn't commit any crimes and didn't feel obliged to say anything about the atrocities happening to innocent people? Or we have forgotten about them?

So where exactly are the "moderate" Muslims standing here? Do they really believe that they will go to hell unless they fight the non-believers?
Quite a lot of the "moderate Muslims" are too busy being bombed, shot, crucified, beheaded and thrown off buildings by the death cultists to worry about satisfying the absurd demands of people like you.
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