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Old 15.11.2015, 19:15
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Quite a lot of the "moderate Muslims" are too busy being bombed, shot, crucified, beheaded and thrown off buildings by the death cultists to worry about satisfying the absurd demands of people like you.
Maybe they are busy fighting non-believers to make sure they don't go to hell?
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  #302  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:15
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

"the west" is not at war with Islam, it is at war with certain specific countries and non-state actors who manipulate Islam for purposes of furthering their political objectives. unless and until "the west" decides to directly address the political issues - which includes directly addressing both its own role, and Saudi Arabia and Turkey's roles, in the funding and aiding of terrorism in the region and beyond - we will unfortunately continue to see events like the tragedy of this weekend in Paris.
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  #303  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:24
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Well, the absense shows that "moderate" Muslims are starting to be aware that if they condemn the terror acts "in the name of Allah" they actually go against their own religion! So I imagine they are slowly and slowly caving in that "those non believers had it coming for dressing up in mini skirts and drinking beer at 11 o'clock at night"

There are over 100 verses in the Qoran that call on Muslims to fight and kill non-believers. Apparently if you don't join the fight you will be sent to hell!

I think slowly we are realizing that "moderate Muslim" is something very close to a "moderate Nazi"

Surely there were some Nazi's that didn't commit any crimes and didn't feel obliged to say anything about the atrocities happening to innocent people? Or we have forgotten about them?

So where exactly are the "moderate" Muslims standing here? Do they really believe that they will go to hell unless they fight the non-believers?
I think someone has to do it!

Here's an abbreviated guide to multicultural religion tolerance:

- you can make friends with any ethnic and religious groups as long as you don't cross their boundaries,

- thou shall not ridicule and badmouth any religion because it means profoundly life to some,

- in your lifetime you might not get married to anyone you please because of some religious backgrounds that play important role in relations,

- finally terrorism has nothing to do with any religion, although it might sounds like it is representing set of such believes but believe me it doesn't.

- there can be any sick in mind person who believes what's it good for majority but it doesn't represent views of majority.
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  #304  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:27
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Maybe they are busy fighting non-believers to make sure they don't go to hell?
If all the Muslims in the world (more than a billion of them) were as militant towards the kafir as you suggest, we wouldn't be looking at the sporadic, usually quite useless, attacks we've witnessed in Europe over the last decade or so. We'd be looking at all out war, rivers of blood on the streets of Luton, Marseille and Amsterdam.

But we're not, are we?

That's because most people aren't in the habit of murdering their next door neighbours, whatever religion they practise.

Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 15.11.2015 at 19:41.
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  #305  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:51
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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"the west" is not at war with Islam, it is at war with certain specific countries and non-state actors who manipulate Islam for purposes of furthering their political objectives. unless and until "the west" decides to directly address the political issues - which includes directly addressing both its own role, and Saudi Arabia and Turkey's roles, in the funding and aiding of terrorism in the region and beyond - we will unfortunately continue to see events like the tragedy of this weekend in Paris.
I have a problem with ascribing the blame for this to this mythical "The West" thing. Its a sly way of saying, "They got hit because they deserved it". How many of the people killed yesterday did such things in some islamic country? Perhaps the worse some of us ever did was fill up our gas tanks with discounted gasoline.

Sorry, I don't think most of us share any such guilt. Try the Germans.
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  #306  
Old 15.11.2015, 19:52
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Well, here most of us have friends and relatives who live in Paris- Christians, Muslims and non religious.
I know a few people that live in Paris as well. When this was going down, I didn't think of them at all as the odds out of the 2+ million people in Paris, they would be tied up in this didn't even cross my mind.

I've already put this event behind me. I'm now looking forward to whether this weeks episode of The Walking Dead is going to let us know if Glenn is really dead. I suspect he is still alive.
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  #307  
Old 15.11.2015, 20:02
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I have a problem with ascribing the blame for this to this mythical "The West" thing. Its a sly way of saying, "They got hit because they deserved it". How many of the people killed yesterday did such things in some islamic country? Perhaps the worse some of us ever did was fill up our gas tanks with discounted gasoline.

Sorry, I don't think most of us share any such guilt. Try the Germans.
Funny, because Crazygringo didn't write any such thing.
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  #308  
Old 15.11.2015, 20:05
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I know a few people that live in Paris as well. When this was going down, I didn't think of them at all as the odds out of the 2+ million people in Paris, they would be tied up in this didn't even cross my mind.
Nice lad you appear to be... i certainly thought of my friends and contacted them to make sure they and their families were alright and if they needed me to make a drive I would be on the way.

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I've already put this event behind me. I'm now looking forward to whether this weeks episode of The Walking Dead is going to let us know if Glenn is really dead. I suspect he is still alive.
Unbelievably callous remark but sadly indicative - bit like Charlie Hebdo only real agitation for change will do something... did you feel the same two days after 9/11 ???

Last edited by parnell; 15.11.2015 at 20:40.
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  #309  
Old 15.11.2015, 20:07
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Funny, because Crazygringo didn't write any such thing.
A lot of posts here imply that the blame for what happened yesterday was due to something "The West" did somewhere some time. Bullshit. Yesterday was a random massacre of innocent people. It is unjustifiable as far as this civilisation is concerned.
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:08
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Nice lad you appear to be... i certainly thought of my friends and contacted them to make sure they and there families were alright and if they needed me to make a drive I would be on the way.


Unbelievably callous remark but sadly indicative - bit like Charlie Hebdo only real agitation for change will do something... did you feel the same two days after 9/11 ???
I bet you cried when that Amy Winehouse died, didn't you?
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:09
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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A lot of posts here imply that the blame for what happened yesterday was due to something "The West" did somewhere some time. Bullshit. Yesterday was a random massacre of innocent people. It is unjustifiable as far as this civilisation is concerned.
You quoted Crazygringo, then paraphrased what you thought he said. He never said any such thing.

Stop being a dick, Phos, and address what Crazygringo actually said.
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:13
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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You quoted Crazygringo, then paraphrased what you thought he said. He never said any such thing.

Stop being a dick, Phos, and address what Crazygringo actually said.
Well he just happened to be at the tail end of a thread of hand wringing apologetics for Islamic extremism. I'm fine to clear that up with acknowledgement that none of such terrorism is justifiable.
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  #313  
Old 15.11.2015, 20:16
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Well he just happened to be at the tail end of a thread of hand wringing apologetics for Islamic extremism. I'm fine to clear that up with acknowledgement that none of such terrorism is justifiable.
Stop wriggling, Phos, and address Crazygringo's actual post.
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  #314  
Old 15.11.2015, 20:17
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

He never ever said it was 'justifiable'. No-one is. An excellent article does address the hypocrisy and selectiveness of the West:

Our Terrorism Double Standard: After Paris, Let's Stop Blaming Muslims and Take a Hard Look at Ourselves @alternet
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...aming-muslims-

The shameless exploitation of some groups, be they ultra-right, or ultra-Christians (like the USA Huguenots as said earlier) is clear to many.

Edit. Sorry the link does not work. Here is part of the article:

Western countries, particularly the U.S., are directly responsible for the violence and destruction in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Yemen, from which millions of refugees are fleeing:
  • The illegal U.S.-led invasion of Iraq led to the deaths of at least one million people, destabilized the entire region, and created extreme conditions in which militant groups like al-Qaeda spread like wildfire, eventually leading to the emergence of ISIS.
  • In Afghanistan, the ongoing U.S.-led war and occupation — which the Obama administration just prolonged for a second time — has led to approximately a quarter of a million deaths and has displaced millions of Afghans.
  • The disastrous U.S.-led NATO intervention in Libya destroyed the government, turning the country into a hotbed for extremism and allowing militant groups like ISIS to spread west into North Africa. Thousands of Libyans have been killed, and hundreds of thousands made refugees.
  • In Yemen, the U.S. and other Western nations are arming and backing the Saudi-led coalition that is raining down bombs, including banned cluster munitions, on civilian areas, pulverizing the poorest country in the Middle East. And, once again — the story should now be familiar — thousands have been killed and hundreds of thousands have been displaced.
Syria is a bit more complicated. Many refugees in the country, which has been torn apart by almost five years of bitter war, are fleeing the brutal repression of the Assad government. Western countries and their allies, however, share some of the blame. Allies such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey have greatly inflamed the conflict by supporting extremist groups like al-Qaeda affiliate al-Nusra.
And it should go without saying that millions of Syrian refugees are fleeing the very same terror at the hands of ISIS that the group allegedly unleashed upon Paris. By suppressing Syrian and Iraqi refugees fleeing the ruthlessly violent extremist group, France and other Western countries will only be further adding to the already shocking number of its victims.
Dislocating the blameWhen the U.S. and its allies bomb weddings and hospitals in Yemenand Afghanistan, killing hundreds of civilians, “Americans” doesn’t trend globally on Twitter. Yet when Parisians are allegedly killed by Islamic extremists, “Muslims” does.
The imperialist West always try to dislocate the blame. It’s always the foreigner’s, the non-Westerner’s, the Other’s fault; it’s never the fault of the enlightened West.
Islam is the new scapegoat. Western imperial policies of ravaging entire nations, propping up repressive dictators, and supporting extremist groups are conveniently forgotten.
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:21
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Well, the absense shows that "moderate" Muslims are starting to be aware that if they condemn the terror acts "in the name of Allah" they actually go against their own religion! So I imagine they are slowly and slowly caving in that "those non believers had it coming for dressing up in mini skirts and drinking beer at 11 o'clock at night"

There are over 100 verses in the Qoran that call on Muslims to fight and kill non-believers. Apparently if you don't join the fight you will be sent to hell!

I think slowly we are realizing that "moderate Muslim" is something very close to a "moderate Nazi"

Surely there were some Nazi's that didn't commit any crimes and didn't feel obliged to say anything about the atrocities happening to innocent people? Or we have forgotten about them?

So where exactly are the "moderate" Muslims standing here? Do they really believe that they will go to hell unless they fight the non-believers?


Not very logical to judge a religion based on the activities of 0f 0.0067% of their members (assuming ISIS has around 100,000 members/supporters)


It is like judging Christianity based on the activities of the IRA or the Klu Klux Klan?


As you like to quote
"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right, and turn away from the ignorant. (Qur'an, 7: 199)"
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:32
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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A lot of posts here imply that the blame for what happened yesterday was due to something "The West" did somewhere some time. Bullshit. Yesterday was a random massacre of innocent people. It is unjustifiable as far as this civilisation is concerned.
How is it random if ISIS have clearly stated that the attack is in retaliation for French bombing of its bases and people?? This is asymmetric warfare, and its something that all governments should plan and prepare for if they are going to make war with such a ruthless enemy.
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:48
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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He never ever said it was 'justifiable'. No-one is. An excellent article does address the hypocrisy and selectiveness of the West:

Our Terrorism Double Standard: After Paris, Let's Stop Blaming Muslims and Take a Hard Look at Ourselves @alternet
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...aming-muslims-

The shameless exploitation of some groups, be they ultra-right, or ultra-Christians (like the USA Huguenots as said earlier) is clear to many.

Edit. Sorry the link does not work. Here is part of the article:

Western countries, particularly the U.S., are directly responsible for the violence and destruction in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Yemen, from which millions of refugees are fleeing:
  • The illegal U.S.-led invasion of Iraq led to the deaths of at least one million people, destabilized the entire region, and created extreme conditions in which militant groups like al-Qaeda spread like wildfire, eventually leading to the emergence of ISIS.
  • In Afghanistan, the ongoing U.S.-led war and occupation — which the Obama administration just prolonged for a second time — has led to approximately a quarter of a million deaths and has displaced millions of Afghans.
  • The disastrous U.S.-led NATO intervention in Libya destroyed the government, turning the country into a hotbed for extremism and allowing militant groups like ISIS to spread west into North Africa. Thousands of Libyans have been killed, and hundreds of thousands made refugees.
  • In Yemen, the U.S. and other Western nations are arming and backing the Saudi-led coalition that is raining down bombs, including banned cluster munitions, on civilian areas, pulverizing the poorest country in the Middle East. And, once again — the story should now be familiar — thousands have been killed and hundreds of thousands have been displaced.
Syria is a bit more complicated. Many refugees in the country, which has been torn apart by almost five years of bitter war, are fleeing the brutal repression of the Assad government. Western countries and their allies, however, share some of the blame. Allies such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey have greatly inflamed the conflict by supporting extremist groups like al-Qaeda affiliate al-Nusra.
And it should go without saying that millions of Syrian refugees are fleeing the very same terror at the hands of ISIS that the group allegedly unleashed upon Paris. By suppressing Syrian and Iraqi refugees fleeing the ruthlessly violent extremist group, France and other Western countries will only be further adding to the already shocking number of its victims.
Dislocating the blameWhen the U.S. and its allies bomb weddings and hospitals in Yemenand Afghanistan, killing hundreds of civilians, “Americans” doesn’t trend globally on Twitter. Yet when Parisians are allegedly killed by Islamic extremists, “Muslims” does.
The imperialist West always try to dislocate the blame. It’s always the foreigner’s, the non-Westerner’s, the Other’s fault; it’s never the fault of the enlightened West.
Islam is the new scapegoat. Western imperial policies of ravaging entire nations, propping up repressive dictators, and supporting extremist groups are conveniently forgotten.
The total deaths in Iraq are a quarter million not a million as stated, see here which is the most authorative source, of course, whatever the number they are far too many.
Many of these deaths resulted out of the Shia/Sunni conflicts but how many is not anywhere well defined.
Quote "Police forces have been a major target, with 9,609 deaths reported - by far the largest toll of any professional group." Clearly these were opportunist killings with aims not aligned with/by the Western coalition.
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Old 15.11.2015, 20:59
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

The Paris massacres were against civilians and were Terrorism, not warfare (asymmetric or otherwise). The French and Belgian security forces failed in detecting them even though they were planned well in advance, by people who were clearly suspicious and followed similar pattern to previous attacks.
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  #319  
Old 15.11.2015, 21:06
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The total deaths in Iraq are a quarter million not a million as stated, see here which is the most authorative source, of course, whatever the number they are far too many.
Many of these deaths resulted out of the Shia/Sunni conflicts but how many is not anywhere well defined.
Quote "Police forces have been a major target, with 9,609 deaths reported - by far the largest toll of any professional group." Clearly these were opportunist killings with aims not aligned with/by the Western coalition.
Never happened when old Saddam was in charge, though, did it?

Whatever happened to him, I wonder...?
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Old 15.11.2015, 21:10
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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How is it random if ISIS have clearly stated that the attack is in retaliation for French bombing of its bases and people?? This is asymmetric warfare, and its something that all governments should plan and prepare for if they are going to make war with such a ruthless enemy.
Shooting civilians they don't know, randomly, is warfare?

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The Paris massacres were against civilians and were Terrorism, not warfare (asymmetric or otherwise).
Thank you.
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